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 Re:

Dear proudpapa

Quote : krautfrau wrote : ///It's principle based sanctification based on philosophy and oriental mysticism, which is why Watchman Nee was better at explaining it than all the other writers. ///

I am confused by this statement, is it implying that Watchman Nee advocated principle based sanctification or was opposed to principle based sanctification ?

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I believe he was opposed.

Quote : I have noticed a problem for sometime with the modern gospel.

We should be able, by being filled with the Spirit, go into the streets and give the Gospel, a Gospel with such Power that it instantly delivers the Drunk from the power of his alcohol addiction, the homosexual or porno addict from the power of their sexual addiction, the theif from his covetesness and so on.

But we are not seeing much of this today. instead we are seeing churches sponsering AA meetings and various 7 step programs and etc. such ways of overcoming addictions will work with any religion.

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Yes because the so called baptism of the Spirit is not the genuine thing we saw in the past so therefore no power.


 2013/7/14 6:18
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Krautfrau,

I can definitely see that you disagree with what I believe the scripture says. However, your interpretation (or the author of it) of both Romans 8 and Philippians 3 seems to be molded by your theological framework. We are called to not read into the scriptures what we already believe, but to let the scripture tell us what it means.

Ideally, I believe the scripture admonishes us to abstain from sin--totally severing the ties to it that we may be gloriously shown to be children of God through our obedience and pursuit of holiness. However, the reality is that this is not something we do ourselves. It is a work of God. And yes, if we totally died to self and allowed the Spirit to reign, we would act as we ought. But Romans 7, Philippians 3, and many other verses attest to the reality that we have yet to arrive.

Think about it. What if the Bible said things like "No one is perfect" or "Although we should strive for perfection, no one will attain it." Then you would end up with all these people who use the grace of God as permission for sin. Our faults are always presented through 2 lenses, when dealing with sin the the life of the believer: 1) We are redeemed and covered by the blood of Jesus Christ because He served as our propitiation. 2) That we must seek to abandon sin in pursuit of Holiness, a work that is wrought by the power of God.

There is no excuse for sin, because God has given us everything for life and godliness. So we must pursue it. But I am not going to EVER say in this life that I have attained to perfection, just as paul never said it. Just as none of the other apostles ever said it. How could I be so arrogant as ever to say that I have attained to a state of perfection? Even if I never sin again and follow the will of God perfectly, allowing the Holy Spirit to exercise complete control of me, may God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world was crucified to me and I to the world!

 2013/7/14 9:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
: Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the DEGREE that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.



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HERE IS A HINT: Attainment is in DEGREES

GRADUAL, a process.

From glory to glory and faith to faith.

We don't experientially possess all the land at once.

 2013/7/14 13:47
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.



If Paul wrote to Philippians that 'Don't think I have already been martyred I have not', everyone will laugh at him. Why? because the very fact that he is writing a letter proves that he is still alive. There is no need for Paul to explain them that he has not been glorified yet, the fact that he is being persecuted shows that he is not saved from the presence of Sin. I am sorry your explanation is total flawed. Why can't people read scripture as it is, without being influenced by Theology? If you have read like that you will know that Paul is talking about.

Philippians 3-12 is continuation of verse 7 where Paul is talking about knowing Jesus and fellowshipping with him. He has not completely known him yet, he is not completely united with him in death, which is to be dead to the desires of Flesh. This is same spirit with which he wrote 1 Corinthians 13-9.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

So Paul is getting the revelation of Jesus in parts. He has not known him fully. Based on what he know about Jesus he is confirmed to his image. But that does not mean Paul has become completely like Christ.

Quote:

All religions mortify deeds of the flesh, but only one does it through the Spirit. Any religion that does it through a long process of death to the soul, through self discipline against and denial of the desires of the flesh and soul, is of the flesh not the Spirit.



Sanctification is progressive. Every growth in nature that God has created is gradual. There is no animal or plan that is born grown. This is the way God has designed it. This is the way nature sustains. Deuteronomy 7-22 talks about how God will deliver the heathen nations to Israel - 'The Lord your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you'. In spiritual terms it is progressive deliverance from Sin, else the beasts (Pride) will multiply inside us and will consume us.

The difference between Christianity where you are gradually transformed into the image of Christ and Buddhism where you move from one stage to another to become that supreme human being is, who is doing the work. Christianity the spirit inside us is doing the work and we are just working out by being obedient to the spirit. But in other religions it is a good show in flesh and flesh is working. For example there is a brother who came from Hindu faith, he confessed that he overcame anger by Yoga when he was Hindu. Nothing could cause him exhibit anger but he could never overcome anger and hatred in heart. Other religions can only create whitewashed tombs. The inner life will be dead in them.

A fake $100 bill will look similar to a original $100 bill. No one will change the original because there are fake bills that look like them. But the difference is the value inside the original $100 bill. Same way the difference in Christianity is the value of Holy Spirit inside us. Christ in you is the hope of your glory.


_________________
Sreeram

 2013/7/15 0:48Profile









 Re:

Dear havok30x

Quote : But I am not going to EVER say in this life that I have attained to perfection, just as paul never said it. Just as none of the other apostles ever said it. How could I be so arrogant as ever to say that I have attained to a state of perfection? Even if I never sin again and follow the will of God perfectly, allowing the Holy Spirit to exercise complete control of me, may God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world was crucified to me and I to the world!

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Saying that one has been perfected by the grace of God alone and not in ones own strength is not arrogant as you say and Paul does in fact witness to it when he has to dispute with the Thessalonians (1Thes 2:10) to defend his doctrine. He also would not dare to tell others to imitate him if he was a daily sinner. Likewise to the Philippians (3:15) he gives instructions to the perfect ones.

 2013/7/15 4:47
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Brother,

Paul was not writing about perfection in 1 Thess. He was writing about how he was not taking advantage of them in his ministry, as he often had to do to separate himself from those false men who ministered for sordid gain. It was, again, not a treatise on perfection. Paul was merely making a case to the Thessalonians that he had, indeed, NOT taken advantage of them.

Let me share this saying which I have made a point to try to live by when reading the Word:

"A text without context is a pretext for a proof text."

As believers, we have got to stop quoting verses that support our positions when the context surrounding those verses have NOTHING to do with those doctrines. Even some very sound, very Biblical doctrines have verses that have been associated with them that truly have nothing to do with those doctrines.

More than that though, we as believers have GOT to start drawing meanings out of the texts instead of reading our beliefs into the texts. We all have a tendency to do it. Stop it.

 2013/7/15 12:42Profile









 Re:

Sree wrote : Sanctification is progressive. Every growth in nature that God has created is gradual. There is no animal or plan that is born grown. This is the way God has designed it. This is the way nature sustains. Deuteronomy 7-22 talks about how God will deliver the heathen nations to Israel - 'The Lord your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you'. In spiritual terms it is progressive deliverance from Sin, else the beasts (Pride) will multiply inside us and will consume us.

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Yes I agree that there is a process leading up to rebirth or baptism in the Spirit. The rebirth though is an end to sinning. Then afterwards there is growth but it is not a growth towards holiness, it is growth in grace. Those ho have not experienced the power of the Holy Spirit over their old nature, to put the old nature to death have not yet arrived at the new birth.

 2013/7/15 12:47
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying Krautfrau. Are you saying that upon the conversion of an unbeliever, that sin completely ceases?

 2013/7/15 12:52Profile









 Re:

Not as you understand conversion. When one first comes to Christ for forgiveness, one usually finds that sin still has power over one so needs to understand what full deliverance and freedom from sin means that is, what Christ achieved on the cross. That usually comes later.

 2013/7/15 13:06









 Re:

Brother

If we disagree on that verse what about Paul saying that they should imitate him? How could a man who was still bound by sin dare to say that? Would your pastor or yourself if a pastor dare to say that?

 2013/7/15 13:27





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