| Gradual sanctification not scriptural|
Romans 8 says, if through the Spirit you do mortify the deeds of the flesh ye shall live.
So if you have deeds of the flesh that you just can't mortify yet because you have not worked enough death into your walk, you are not doing it through the Spirit. Therefore you are not following the Spirit, but the flesh
All religions mortify deeds of the flesh, but only one does it through the Spirit. Any religion that does it through a long process of death to the soul, through self discipline against and denial of the desires of the flesh and soul, is of the flesh not the Spirit. It's principle based sanctification based on philosophy and oriental mysticism, which is why Watchman Nee was better at explaining it than all the other writers.
Colosians addresses this and sets the record straight. It is by faith in things above in Christ at the right hand of God, we are to walk in, because that is how we received him -Col 2-3. (from another forum)
| 2013/7/13 4:52|
| Re: Gradual sanctification not scriptural|
Oh friend...good luck with that view it does not mesh with the full counsel of God's word. Every day we strive to walk in the spirit and every day we fail in one way or another. We are changed glory to glory into the image of Christ but it is not about what you do but what He has done. You are going to frustrate yourself either through failure or ignoring where you do fall short and will not be able to look to Christ alone. Daily die, daily week to walk in the fullness which God has for you but i plead with you not to take such a yoke upon your neck. Positionally you are complete in Christ, practically you must die daily and stay attached to the vine that Christ may liv through you. Most I have seen who claim perfection r some version of it fall into the sin of self righteousness becoming hard, cold, judgmental and ineffective in their walk because they can find no good. Lord bless u.
| 2013/7/13 5:33||Profile|
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Quote: So if you have deeds of the flesh that you just can't mortify yet because you have not worked enough death into your walk, you are not doing it through the Spirit. Therefore you are not following the Spirit, but the flesh.
Something that has come of a revelation to me in the past week as I have been praying to be planted into Christ death is this.
As you are planted into the death of Christ you are then released into a new life which is the life of Christ. It was this scripture that help me see it.
1 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
So that planting or bearing in the body the dying of Christ as this scripture calls it allows the manifestation of Christ in our bodies. But that is not a Gradual process it happens in a instance and then we walk in it bearing the death of Christ, so that Christ will be seen in our lives.
Quote: Most I have seen who claim perfection r some version of it fall into the sin of self righteousness becoming hard, cold, judgmental and ineffective in their walk because they can find no good.
It a shame that all the denominations that used to hold to this view in word only and try in the flesh to be perfect because we cant be perfect in our own strength. Take the Salvation army for example they preached instantaneous sanctification and experienced it and stormed the world with the Gospel of Christ. But now they are dead and there gospel in a social gospel, they dont have the same spirit as there founding members... Booth or Brengle.
Methodism which a third of the people in the UK once practiced and, it spread into the US with the circuit riders crossed the States proclaiming the Gospel with wonderful moves of God breaking out in communities. Dead
You see we call men by their names... Booth, Brengle, and Wesley but in all honesty it wasnt them they had been planted into Christ death and the life they manifested Christ life and changed nations.
| 2013/7/13 8:14||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| Re: Gradual sanctification not scriptural|
The righteous are said to be scarcely saved, not with respect to the certainty of the event, for the purpose of God in their favor cannot be disappointedbut in respect of their own apprehensions, and the great difficulties they are brought through. But when, after a long experience of their own deceitful hearts, after repeated proofs of their weakness, wilfulness, ingratitude, and insensibilitythey find that none of these things can separate them from the love of God in Christ; Jesus becomes more and more precious to their souls. They love much, because much has been forgiven them!
They dare not, they will not ascribe anything to themselves, but are glad to acknowledge, that they must have perished a thousand times overif Jesus had not been their Savior, their Shepherd, and their Shield! When they were wanderingHe brought them back. When they were fallenHe raised them. When they were woundedHe healed them. When they were faintingHe revived them. By him, out of weakness, they have been made strong. He has taught their hands to battle, and covered their heads in the day of battle. In a word, some of the clearest proofs they have had of his excellencehave been occasioned by the mortifying proofs they have had of their own vileness. They would not have known so much of himif they had not known so much of themselves!
Further, a spirit of humiliation, which is both the strength and beauty of our professionis greatly promoted by our feeling, as well as readingthat when we would do goodevil is present with us. A broken and contrite spirit is pleasing to the Lord. He has promised to dwell with those who have it; and experience shows, that the exercise of all our graces is in proportion to the humbling sense we have of the depravity of our nature.
Whoever is truly humbledwill not be easily angry, nor harsh or critical of others. He will be compassionate and tender to the infirmities of his fellow-sinners, knowing that if there is a differenceit is grace alone which has made it! He knows that he has the seeds of every evil in his own heart. And under all trials and afflictionshe will look to the hand of the Lord, and lay his mouth in the dust, acknowledging that he suffers much less than his iniquities have deserved.
These are some of the advantages and good fruits which the Lord enables us to obtain from that bitter rootindwelling sin.
| 2013/7/13 12:08||Profile|
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You will never do anything. We yield to Christ and let him. Live through us as we stay on the cross.
| 2013/7/13 21:24||Profile|
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Gradual sanctification is Biblical. Excusing your sin is not. There is a huge difference. Even Paul said He had not attained to it. Just look at Ephesians 3:
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
Sanctification is gradual, in reality. If it was for the Apostle Paul, it is true for us.
Now, about Romans 8. The context of those verses is clear. This is the difference between those who are living according to the Spirit (grace) and those who are living according to the flesh (law). All the verses leading up to chapter 8 are not a treatise on sanctification. They are talking about salvation and the difference between living by the law and the Spirit.
| 2013/7/13 23:21||Profile|
| Re: Gradual sanctification not scriptural|
krautfrau wrote : ///It's principle based sanctification based on philosophy and oriental mysticism, which is why Watchman Nee was better at explaining it than all the other writers. ///
I am confused by this statement, is it implying that Watchman Nee advocated principle based sanctification or was opposed to principle based sanctification ?
| 2013/7/14 1:10||Profile|
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I have noticed a problem for sometime with the modern gospel.
We should be able, by being filled with the Spirit, go into the streets and give the Gospel, a Gospel with such Power that it instantly delivers the Drunk from the power of his alcohol addiction, the homosexual or porno addict from the power of their sexual addiction, the theif from his covetesness and so on.
But we are not seeing much of this today. instead we are seeing churches sponsering AA meetings and various 7 step programs and etc. such ways of overcoming addictions will work with any religion.
| 2013/7/14 1:46||Profile|
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If it is about what He did and not what we do, then we could enter in immediately being of faith and not works.
There is a daily need to remain in that death, but death is an event and not a process - one minute we are alive albeit dying, the next dead, there must be a point of death.
Many have indeed fallen into error with this doctrine, most due to hearing the doctrine but not having it become a reality to them.
| 2013/7/14 6:00|
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Quote : being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
Verse 12. Not as though I had already attained
For I have not yet received the prize; I am not glorified, for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17
either were already perfect
nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic Games, and the word is the proof; for is spoken of those who have completed their
Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.
But I follow after
but I pursue; several are gone before me in this glorious way, and have obtained the crown of martyrdom; I am hurrying after them.
That I may apprehend
That I may receive those blessings to which I am called by Christ Jesus. There is still an allusion here to the stadium, and exercises there: the apostle considers Christ as the brabeus, or judge in the games, who proclaimed the victor, and distributed the prizes; and he represents himself as being introduced by this very brabeus, or judge, into the contest; and this brabeus brought him in with the design to crown him, if he contended faithfully. To complete this faithful contention is what he has in view; that he may apprehend, or lay hold on that for which he had been apprehended, or taken by the hand by Christ who had converted, strengthened, and endowed him with apostolic powers, that he might fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life.
Verse 13. I count not myself to have apprehended
whatever gifts, graces, or honours I may have received from Jesus Christ, I consider every thing as incomplete till I have finished my course, got this crown, and have my body raised and fashioned after his glorious body.
This one thing I do
This is the concern, as it is the sole business, of my life.
Forgetting those things which are behind
My conduct is not regulated nor influenced by that of others; I consider my calling, my Master, my work, and my end. If others think they have time to loiter or trifle, I have none: time is flying; eternity is at hand; and my all is at stake.
The Greek word points out the strong exertions made in the race; every muscle and nerve is exerted, and he puts forth every particle of his strength in running. He was running for life, and running for his life.
Verse 14. I press toward the mark
I pursue along the line; this is a reference to the white line that marked the ground in the stadium, from the starting place to the goal, on which the runners were obliged to keep their eye fixed; for they who transgressed or went beyond this line did not run lawfully, and were not crowned, even though they got first to the goal. See the concluding observations on "1Co 9:27".
What is called mark or scope, here, is called the line, i.e. the marked line, Philippians 3:16. When it was said to Diogenes, the cynic, "Thou art now an old man, rest from thy labours;" to this he answered: "If I have run long in the race, will it become me to slacken my pace when come near the end; should I not rather stretch forward?" Diog. Laert., lib. Vi. Cap. 2. sec. 6.
For the prize of the high calling of God
The reward which God from above calls me, by Christ Jesus, to receive. The apostle still keeps in view his crown of martyrdom and his glorious resurrection.
Verse 15. As many as be perfect
As many as are thoroughly instructed in Divine things, who have cast off all dependence on the law and on every other system for salvation, and who discern God calling them from above by Christ Jesus; be thus minded; be intensely in earnest for eternal life, nor ever halt till the race is finished.
The word perfect, is taken here in the same sense in which it is taken 1 Corinthians 14:20:- Be not CHILDREN in understanding-but in understanding be ye MEN, be ye perfect-thoroughly instructed, deeply experienced. 1 Corinthians 2:6:- We speak wisdom among the perfect, among those who are fully instructed, adults in Christian knowledge. Ephesians 4:13:- Till we all come-unto a perfect man, 957; to the state of adults in Christianity. Hebrews 5:14:- But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, the perfect-those who are thoroughly instructed and experienced in Divine things. Let us therefore, says the apostle, as many as be perfect-as have entered fully into the spirit and design of the Gospel, be thus minded, viz. Forget the things which are behind, and stretch forward along the mark for the prize.
If in any thing ye be otherwise minded
If ye have not yet entered into the full spirit and design of this Gospel, if any of you have yet remaining any doubts relative to Jewish ordinances, or their expediency in Christianity, God shall reveal even this unto you; for while you are sincere and upright, God will take care that ye shall have full instruction in these Divine things.
Verse 16. Whereto we have already attained
Let us not lose that part of the race which we have already run, let us walk by the same rule-let us keep the white line continually in view, let us mind the same thing, always considering the glorious prize which is held out by God through Christ Jesus to animate and encourage us."
(from an unknown writer)
Quote : Now, about Romans 8. The context of those verses is clear. This is the difference between those who are living according to the Spirit (grace) and those who are living according to the flesh (law). All the verses leading up to chapter 8 are not a treatise on sanctification. They are talking about salvation and the difference between living by the law and the Spirit.
Agreed but not in the way you understand it. Carnal believers walk in the flesh.
| 2013/7/14 6:14|