SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Difference between Legitimate and Illegitimate Forms of Christianity

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 The Difference between Legitimate and Illegitimate Forms of Christianity

For those who want to understand what is the difference between legitimate and illegitimate forms of Christianity from a historical perspective (I would add, biblical and covenantal), there is AN EXCELLENT BOOK:

THE HERESY OF ORTHODOXY, by Kostenberger and Kruger.

The subtitle for the book is: "How contemporary culture's fascination with diversity has reshaped our understanding of early Christianity"

This is a MUST READ. Especially in light of the confusion that I have noticed in many threads recently, it is obvious that there is a GREAT NEED for people to understand these fundamentals.

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2013/7/13 1:11Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re: The Difference between Legitimate and Illegitimate Forms of Christianity

Just bumping this thread so that more people could get this important resource.

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2013/7/15 17:16Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re:

Has anyone ever read this book?

If you want to read a book review for THE HERESY OF ORTHODOXY, just go to http://www.apologetics315.com/2012/03/book-review-heresy-of-orthodoxy-by.html

I really think that the information contained in this book is absolutely vital for our day and age, especially in light of the confusion of some threads I have read in the past few weeks on sermonindex.

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2013/7/16 14:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Has anyone ever read this book?

If you want to read a book review for THE HERESY OF ORTHODOXY, just go to http://www.apologetics315.com/2012/03/book-review-heresy-of-orthodoxy-by.html

I really think that the information contained in this book is absolutely vital for our day and age, especially in light of the confusion of some threads I have read in the past few weeks on sermonindex. Renouncer



May I ask what you yourself believe is the value of the book. From the review you have posted it would appear to be a thesis to either challenge or else balance another older thesis which was itself influential in academic circles. Of course I don't doubt that Bauer's thesis would be influential, given its eclectic appeal. Nor that it has in spirit, if not in conscious memory, continued to influence the ease with which some authors and their adherents essentially teach an eclectic theology. Perhaps the term post modern is essentially the same spirit in essence.

What specifically do you believe would benefit readers today? Also do you think that it would be necessary for the reader to also have read Bauer's thesis as well, given that this work of Köstenberger and Kruger addresses the disseminate effect of Erhman. It is not likely that many people would have read Bauer's original academic work. Also do you personally know if Erhman's books are popular and if so where and how they themselves have disseminated into the western churches especially in the UK and the USA?

I have read none of these books or papers by the way. I did see your original post and looked up the recommendation and found part 2 on line which I read in part.

Many Thanks.

 2013/7/16 14:45
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re:

amrkelly,

First of all, I don't think you need to read Walter Bauer's thesis to understand Kostenberger and Kruger's book, THE HERESY OF ORTHODOXY.
In fact, they summarize the main points that they are refuting.

As for the value of this book, it presents a very solid defense of orthodox Christianity (meaning, biblical Christianity - NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX), against the increasingly popular view that any kind of Christianity is legitimate. In fact, some people even go so far as to question the basis for rejecting illegitimate forms of Christianity.

You would be surprised how many people are questioning the foundation of Christianity, both the writings that constitute the Bible and the teachings handed down by the apostles. They don't like the fact that certain people are branded as "heretics", because they don't understand the historical and theological importance of making such a distinction. (Some people who have contributed to sermonindex threads fall into this category.)

Others have accepted heretical teachings without knowing it. They are flirting with dangerous ideas and are at the edge of a precipice and don't even know it. (Many people who have contributed to sermonindex threads fall into this category... and obviously, are not aware of it.)

What Kruger and Kostenberger do (among other things), is that they give you an accurate historical account of the Early Church's stance against false teachers, hence the distinction between the writings that came to be included in the Bible and those that were rejected.

They provide a solid ground for people to:
1) Know that the Bible is the Word of God (as opposed to various other competing writings)
2) Recognize the importance of distinguishing between legitimate and illegitimate forms of Christianity
3) Reject damnable heresies (by first recognizing them, and then by standing up against them)
4) Abide in the truth of the Christian faith, when so many errors are threatening to engulf them.

The truth is that our culture is becoming less tolerant of the exclusivist claims of Christianity, people in the Church are getting more comfortable with heretical teachings (both because they don't see the importance of drawing the line, and because they don't know how to draw the line), and the influence of false teachers like Bauer and Erhman is spreading like gangrene, and people aren't even aware of it.

So, how can we fight against a danger that is present but unknown to many? First, inform them concerning the danger. Second, convince them of the danger. Third, give them the tools necessary to avoid the danger. THAT IS WHAT KRUGER AND KOSTENBERGER's book accomplishes.

I hope that answers your questions, amrkelly.
In Christ,
Renoncer

 2013/7/16 16:50Profile









 Re:

As far as Bart Erhman is concerned he is an open agnostic. It is difficult to imagine why his book would influence anyone who was not in some way severely ignorant of his true position. Having never heard of him until this post I have had a short look into his literature and find that he is predominately dedicated to destroying any confidence in the scriptures and appears to view the Lord Jesus as an historical figure. He seems to be a typical unbelieving theologian.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/agnostic-scholar-bart-ehrman-on-who-wrote-the-bible-and-why-it-matters-97169/

Of course that has little to do with the book you have recommended. I think I will get a copy and read it.


"Through studies of historical records Bauer concluded that what came to be known as orthodoxy was just one of numerous forms of Christianity in the early centuries. It was the form of Christianity practiced in Rome that exercised the uniquely dominant influence over the development of orthodoxy[3] and acquired the majority of converts over time. This was largely due to the greater resources available to the Christians in Rome and due to the conversion to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine I. Practitioners of what became orthodoxy then rewrote the history of the conflict making it appear that this view had always been the majority one. Writings in support of other views were systematically destroyed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bauer

The above comments from the Wikipedia site show just why it will be necessary to read the original thesis by Walter Bauer. Taken at face value the statement would fall full square in the lap of agreement by any right minded and historically literate person who read it.

Do you happen to know at what point in time Kostenberger and Kruger's book starts? I think if I read this book I would have to read the original thesis as well. Otherwise a selective exposure of the original text could easily disguise it deeper meaning or intention. Given that most academic papers or thesis include intellectual statements which can easily be taken out of context of the authors original or else personal beliefs or intentions this would be unavoidable. In this instance this would be especially true as the original thesis is said to be:


"a complex and frustrating problem for the translator who hopes to capture something of the "tone" or "flavor" of the original as well as representing accurately its content. Bauer writes in a dynamic and highly sophisticated manner, mixing precision with irony and even insinuation, pictorial language with careful presentation of the historical evidence, hypotheses and caveats with the subtle use of overstatement and understatement in cleverly nuanced expressions. His German is literary but not necessarily formal. Long sentences with closely interrelated parts appear alongside brief, sometimes cryptic or oblique comments couched in clever, often scholarly German idiom. Frequently the presentation flows along rapidly in an exciting manner, despite the difficulties of the subject matter— but its flow is such that the motion is difficult to capture in translation, and is sometimes even difficult to follow in the original." Robert A Kraft (Translator) of the original thesis from German into English.

Thanks for the reply.

 2013/7/16 19:06
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: Ehrman

One of God's primary rules is that only the repentant will ever get to know Him. Don't ask me for chapter and verse on that, but if Ehrman thinks he can arrive at the foot of the Savior by critical analysis, he is destined to a life of disappointment.

Our God is consumed with a desire to be in relationship with the beloved pinacle of His creation, sometimes hard to believe when we gaze into a mirror wondering just what He sees. But He has ordered His Word to be rendered through the frailty of human flesh so that only those with repentant hearts will be able to comprehend and be apprehended by it.

How do you come to academic grips with that?

No one reading this is obligated to anything I might claim to have heard from God, but for what it is worth, I am convinced that I heard this directly into my spirit from His.

"You can believe My word."

Over many months, and stretching into years those words almost hounded me. I was not one who doubted the Word, making it even stranger to keep hearing this. But over the years I came to realize how easy it was to be deceived, and stray from God. Through it all the Word has kept me, comforted me, confronted me, changed me.

I serve a God who loves me enough to never lie to me, trick me, tease me, or discount my value to Him. I do not need to worry about errors in the Bible, just the errors in me.

Go onto your face before Him, Dr. Ehrman. You might rise up as a man of foolish faith and have a witness inside of eternal life.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/7/16 22:32Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re:

Sidewalk,

Amen. We must submit to God's Word.

The problem usually comes when you have conflicting voices:

1) A Mormon hears a voice saying that the Book of Mormon and the Church of Latter-Day Saints are worthy to be trusted (and feels a burning in the bosom);
2) Whereas a Christian hears a voice saying that the Bible and the teachings handed down by the Apostles are worthy to be trusted (and also feels a conviction in his heart).

Now, how can you argue that the Mormon is being misled (deceived by his heart and possibly by an evil spirit), while arguing that the Christian is being guided by the Holy Spirit?

That is where we must go down to crude facts, taking into consideration historical accounts. You see, God revealed Himself in history for this purpose, showing forth His miraculous power through Jesus Christ and the Apostles, to authenticate their words and ministry. He left His mark in history so that we may know that His Word is indeed found in the Bible.

That is where Kruger and Kostenberger's book becomes critical. They give you a firm historical foundation to stand firm in the Christian Faith, trusting the Word of God as handed down by the Apostles.

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2013/7/17 9:36Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 482


 Re:

amrkelly,

The book goes back to the very beginnings, the days of the Apostles.

Renoncer

 2013/7/17 9:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
One of God's primary rules is that only the repentant will ever get to know Him. Don't ask me for chapter and verse on that, but if Ehrman thinks he can arrive at the foot of the Savior by critical analysis, he is destined to a life of disappointment.{/quote]

Some words from the Holy Spirit come to mind.

Jer_9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the WISE MAN GLORY IN HIS WISDOM, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:

Isa_66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: BUT TO THIS MAN WILL I LOOK, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

1Co_13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

 2013/7/17 11:20





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy