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 Re:

There are two camps regarding Romans 7. Many think that Paul is describing his own experience as a mature believer. I used to think this too, and I respect many who do hold this position. I can picture someone not liking my post thinking, Paul had to be talking about a believer because I struggle the same way he describes. Who gets to define spiritual maturity? And is this verse referring to spiritual maturity and the way a mature Christians struggle with sin? I don’t think so, however I would point them over to Galatians 5:17 which teaches what they are feeling.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:and these are contrary the one to the other:so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Others, think the Apostle Paul is describing his life under the law as a Jew. That is the view I hold to.

Paul was referring to himself in the past, prior to his conversion when he was a religious person, zealous of the law.

Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. This is a typical response coming from Christendom, today.

Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

 2013/7/10 8:33
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: And is this verse referring to spiritual maturity and the way a mature Christians struggle with sin? I don’t think so, however I would point them over to Galatians 5:17 which teaches what they are feeling.

Okay when I was typing out my response I contemplated what verse to put in… I did think to use Galatians 5:17 but decide to go with my conviction and that is Rom 7 which does not describe a spiritually mature Christian, but rather a Christian that is struggling with Carnal nature which is what Gal 5:17 is describing as well…

Now if we are saying up that Gal 5:17 is describing a Spiritually mature Christian and that’s all we can hope to expect on earth, then no wonder the church is defeated…

There is more.....defeat can be replaced with victory..

Lets compare the Romans verses with Gal 5:17

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other

Rom 7: 22-23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul is describing the war between the two opposing sides the Spirit in his inward man and the flesh that opposes God.
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Now because of the war between Spirit and flesh you can’t do the things that you would and you keep falling into sin..

So for me they both are dealing with the same issue. What Paul describes in Romans and Galatians is not what a Spiritual Mature Christian should be are both fleshly and are controlled by the Flesh…

Here is a description from Galatians and Romans on a Spiritual Mature Christian and the method of how you get there.

Rom 8:13-14 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 5: 24-25 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/7/11 8:32Profile









 Re:

Thank you for your response, Colin. However, since you have a different view of Romans 7 than I do, we would continue the discussion comparing "apples with oranges" and get no where. No sense in trying to force a square block into a round hole and I know you would agree.

Blessings to you.

 2013/7/11 8:53









 Re:

Quote: Rom 7: 22-23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

Here we have a clue. A Jew could not delight in the law of God after his inward man. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man here. The Jew obeyed the commandments after the outward man. He did not know yet that lusting after a woman was the same as committing adultery. He did not know that being angry with someone was the same as murder. He only knew that murder and adultery were against the 10 commandments and if he avoided them and the rest of the old law, he was justified.

Quote : Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do

Here we have another clue. Paul says elsewhere that when he was a Jew he believed he kept the law perfectly.

As anyone knows, who has come to a point in the life as a believer when they see that they have failed to live up to the picture presented in the sermon on the mount because they have been walking in their own strength, the Spirit convicts them in the same manner. Even if they did succeed in making a good show outwardly, they know inwardly that they did not and they have lusted and they have hated.

Paul then entered the experience of Romans 8 where he knew the crucifixion of the flesh, in having it put out of action, whereby he could now walk in the Spirit.

 2013/7/12 1:56
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:Murrcorl

Quote:
Can we grow from being Unclean to being Holy.. does abstaining from unclean thing make us clean as we try to live a Holy life?

I would say no because the unclean desire would still lurk in our heart.

Now because of the war between Spirit and flesh you can’t do the things that you would and you keep falling into sin..

So for me they both are dealing with the same issue. What Paul describes in Romans and Galatians is not what a Spiritual Mature Christian should be are both fleshly and are controlled by the Flesh…



I am not able to understand exactly what you are trying to say here, as I find a contradiction between your statements.

I do not agree with you that we cannot grow in Holiness. We are justified by the work that Jesus did for us. But that does not mean we are holy and attained the maximum growth, which means the Gospel has ended there. But the Gospel do not end there, we have the Holy Spirit whom God is willing to pour to us so that we can grow in Holiness. If an evil spirit comes into a person he gradually starts being dominated by evil spirit and grows in evil. Same way Holy Spirit should cause us grow in holiness. The difference is The Holy Spirit is gentle and will not posses us like evil spirits. He wants us to submit willfully to his work. Very simple logic, I am not sure why there is so much confusion on Holy Spirit, it is because people of the world does not know him. They have not experienced him, but try to write a theology on his work. If you can write a book on the direction of wind and predict it perfectly then you can write a Theology on Holy Spirit's work.


Romans 7:14-25 is not about a life of a Spirit-filled Christian. It is a deception. I know a poster in SI who believed in the same and kept disagreeing to all other scripture based on Romans 7. If you read Romans 7 carefully, Paul has mentioned in verse 9 -"I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;". The phrase "I was Once" clearly means he is talking about his past life. He is continuing about his past life in verses 14 to 25. It was a life when he lived as a Jew without being filled with the Spirit.

How is this applicable to us? When we gentiles come to know Christ, the old man who lived a sinful life dies and we are born of the Spirit. This new man instead of living by Spirit will start living by law. We try in our flesh to keep the laws but we fail and fail. This is the stage explained in Pilgrims progress when Christian takes the route of Legalism. He struggles until the evangelist frees him. I went through this stage in my life and finally through brokenness I was dead to the law and united with Spirit (Romans 7-4).

Romans 8, is about the next phase where we are united by Spirit and walk by the spirit. We are no longer obliged to obey our lusts (Romans 8-12). We live an overcoming life, growing in holiness. If this is impossible to attain then Paul is asking us to do the impossible in Romans 8.

Our Spiritual growth should be like building a house (1 Peter 2:5). No matter how tall it becomes it is always rooted on the same foundation. Jesus Christ is the rock of our salvation, the Foundation of our spiritual house. We can never have a foundation of our own. A foundation by itself can never become a happy dwelling house no matter how powerful and strong it is.


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Sreeram

 2013/7/12 2:42Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Rom 7: 22-23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

Quote: Here we have a clue. A Jew could not delight in the law of God after his inward man. Paul is speaking about the spirit of man here. The Jew obeyed the commandments after the outward man. He did not know yet that lusting after a woman was the same as committing adultery. He did not know that being angry with someone was the same as murder. He only knew that murder and adultery were against the 10 commandments and if he avoided them and the rest of the old law, he was justified.

Dont need to say more than that...


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/7/12 11:34Profile









 Re: Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The "inward man" is a straightforward term. As opposed to the outer man (the body of flesh) the inward man is the non-material self. It is not a part of the soulish self, it is the entirety of all that one is apart from the body. This is not a term for regenerate, only. All men are an inward man, that you cannot see and an outward man, that is made of flesh of blood. Of that, you cannot contest.

Many argue that the unregenerate cannot delight in the Law of God, but this is opinion enduring long enough to sit on the shelf of presuppositions. What is commonly accepted as orthodoxy is often nothing more than error that has been held for several generations. David in the Psalms, and Solomon in Proverbs, along with many others, are represented in Scripture as "delighting in the Law of God".

 2013/7/12 12:41
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: I do not agree with you that we cannot grow in Holiness. We are justified by the work that Jesus did for us. But that does not mean we are holy and attained the maximum growth, which means the Gospel has ended there. But the Gospel do not end there, we have the Holy Spirit whom God is willing to pour to us so that we can grow in Holiness.

Okay when you were justified you received the gift of salvation and your spirit was born again so in that sense you were separated by God unto himself so you are a Holy vessel separated unto God. However after conversion most find that there is something that remains in you that hinders you and causes you to fall into sin. So we are Holy because we are separated unto God however the fruit shows we are not pure and our actions by falling into sin would say we are not holy and pure in heart..

So how does this Christian become spiritually mature, perfect, Holy is it by growth does he grow out of the tendency to sin, does he grow out of impurity into purity, do they grow from being a child of God into a Son of God?
Quote: If an evil spirit comes into a person he gradually starts being dominated by evil spirit and grows in evil.
Sorry if evil spirit enters a person then that person is dominated from the moment it enters, likewise when it leaves from that moment he is free.

Quote: This new man instead of living by Spirit will start living by law. We try in our flesh to keep the laws but we fail and fail. This is the stage explained in Pilgrims progress when Christian takes the route of Legalism. He struggles until the evangelist frees him. I went through this stage in my life and finally through brokenness I was dead to the law and united with Spirit (Romans 7-4).
You bring up an excellent point, now before I start I haven’t heard this preached and I am just forming my views on it..

We must consider something when we are born again it’s our spirit that born again, our and our body remains the same. So the new man is birthed into your spirit, however the soul remains unaffected, for example if you smoke before conversion then you’re still going to crave for a cigarette (unless you’re delivered from that addiction at the time of conversion). Just using that as a example it's not and fast it could anyother thing..

So now that we established and I hope you agree that most don’t get it all at conversion. However the order from the Garden of Eden must be restored the Spirit must lead and we must follow so there must be a sanctifying work to make the soul Holy and pure.

Now as the Soul is un-pure and the Soul resists the Spirit that been birthed in us, you could say that the soul is of the old man, the old carnal nature. So what does God use as the tool to bring us to Christ in that area of our life? The Law…

So when we are not yielded to the Spirit but are acting in rebellious way which is simply doing something that we are pleased to do, then we are obliged to fulfill the law…
This then takes us to Romans 6 and Holiness, because the old nature can’t grow in Holiness there is only one remedy and that is cross…

The soul needs to be planted together in the likeness of his death so that the soul can also be resurrected into the likeness of Christ the new man…

That is why I say we cannot grow in Holiness, because the cross is required to allow us to step from defeat to victory from impurity to purity, from sin to separation from sin and the soul becomes separated unto God (Holiness) and we are led by the Spirit of God…


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/7/12 13:48Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people Jer 31:33

I think Paul had this verse in mind when he wrote that Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.

Old testament Outward --- New testament Inward.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/7/12 13:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We must consider something when we are born again it’s our spirit that born again, our and our body remains the same. So the new man is birthed into your spirit, however the soul remains unaffected, for example if you smoke before conversion then you’re still going to crave for a cigarette (unless you’re delivered from that addiction at the time of conversion). Just using that as a example it's not and fast it could anyother thing..



Your soul remains the same, too. It was not changed the day you were born again.

That is why the mind must now be renewed, the will strengthened by God's word and one's emotions healed and reclaimed (experientially) for the will of God.

Our soul was not changed the day we were born again. So, there is a process of sanctification that we now begin to walk in as we experientially take back all the "land" that the enemy has stolen from us. The land is before us, it is there, and it is ours, but God wants us to deal with things in our heart and our past and we must, by faith apprehend these victories that await us.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Putting off the old man and putting on Christ are part of our daily walk of sanctification.

As we walk closely with Christ our mind is renewed, emotions healed and our will is strengthened. This does not all happen in 1 day.

Let me ask you a question: Did the Hebrew children possess all the land in one year? Did they drive out all the enemies in one year? The answer to both, are NO. In fact, God even said that He would not drive them out all at once. Even that was progressive.

Exo 23:29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.

 2013/7/12 16:00





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