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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

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 Re:

Quote:
As the witnesses were killed at the end of their 42 month time of testimony, which you say will be a time of repentance before The Great tribulation, (which is a further three and a half years), Do you accept that their is, in total, a full seven years from the initial pseudo peaceful rise of the Antichrist until the Return of Christ to the earth; and does this not conform to dispensational teaching on Daniels last week?

I know, a complicated question David



It is a difficult question brother, which is why I am taking some time to answer it, or for that matter if I can in the end answer it. The reason is precisely as you say that once we move beyond the question of the Great Tribulation, having spoken of the preceding two witnesses we are in effect speaking of a period of time corresponding to seven years as the latter days of this age. This itself speaks of a theological teaching which has to do with dispensational teaching and this is directly linked to Daniel's prophecy of seventy weeks.

It is because of this latter correspondence to the seventy weeks of Daniel which makes me reticent to simply repeat what others have said, as though that would prove more useful than what has been said already. Anyone can look up this prophecy and see just how contentious a matter it is, and just how despised its interpretation has been over the years. Apart from this over the last few days I have been thinking about the business of claiming a latter seven year period of end time days which make for a more fluid interpretation which focuses on the first 42 months in terms of the whole church age and less on the fixed time of 42 months. Beyond that I am stuck for the moment and until the Lord moves me on I really don't know what to say.

 2013/7/10 12:52
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

question for postrib.

Since the church in china is the final authority on the scripture,and since you base your beliefs,not on the bible,but the Chinese church's infallibility,what protection do you have that this assembly will always lead you into truth?

Secondly,what degree of persecution would be necessary for another authority to preside over the Chinese?

Is this not some weird method of scripture interpretation?

 2013/7/11 22:35Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"I'm not sure the Bible ever speaks of every single saint being killed during the tribulation."

In fact,the antichist's job is just that.And he is even given power to accomplish it.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 2013/7/11 22:40Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Look at what must be brushed aside to adhere to the postrib doctrine.

The marriage supper in heaven
All the escape scriptures
The invitation at the last supper to the one in heaven
The white horses
The consummation in heaven (rev 19)
The parable of the 10 virgins
The testimony of the martyrs
The privilege of riding in the army from heaven.
The promise of mansions in heaven
The hope of his coming
The myriad of scriptures that attest to the coming of the groom for his bride.


How does postrib reconcile the vast testimony of the heavenly scene,when they teach that the raptured ones do a u turn in the air,and never reach heaven?

 2013/7/11 22:53Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1798


 Re: Reply: Thoughts and questions to amrkelly

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you before now. I figured it would likely be a bit before I got back to you again but it's just me being busy and mainly work and its responsibilities that kept me away. It wasn't for lack of interest and I have refreshed myself a bit on some of our former discussion.

I had written,

"I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit though that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared. docs"

And you had replied and wrote,

"No brother I think my posts are a little confusing and definitely misleading in a sense. I realise this clearly because there can be no getting away from the earlier posts I made which assert that the clouds are become a cover to the Lord's return in the first instance. This is classic pre tribulation teaching. In making this latter post where I say that "[w]ith regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion" it would appear that I am trivialising the assertion about clouds. The reality in my thinking was a matter of obedience in writing about Mount Zion, and then having been obedient, of necessity I would have to say something about the mountain being in the clouds. At the back of all of this lies one single idea or reality. God is not far from any one of us, He is right at hand. In Him we live and move and have our being. When we speak of a place in which God moves, as opposed to all things being in Him, we have gone from His presence to speak of His omnipotence in an instant. the Father and the Son are both of these things. We are in the Father and the Son and yet we can know the Father in His presence and the Son by His presence."

"The Lord's return is of this order of events. It is in the end a physical visible reality. Yet it is preceded by a physical and invisible reality. It is a feast become a flight into a kingdom of nations. It is a veil which makes something hidden and a veil removed which is the meaning of visibility. It is the Father's House and the Kingdom of His Son. It is Mount Zion and it is the earth. It is in the clouds and it is on the clouds."

"To answer your question about my being one who believes that the church is appointed to being removed before the tribulation. I can say plainly that I do in fact believe in two raptures. One before the Great Tribulation, and one when the veil is removed. I also believe (like the post apostolic Fathers) that the real and only meaningful tribulation when speaking about the end of this age is the only one spoken of in Revelation. It is a mystery and it is unfathomable by ordinary comprehension as though the natural mind could grope to find it's meaning. The following verses represent a tribulation for some saints yet this is just the beginning of the end."

Me: I know of the 42 months and their eschatological significance that you mentioned. I think I did get confused as to whether you were a pre-trib believer or not. You seemed to speak of a hidden rapture covered by the clouds and also seemed to speak of a rapture open and visible to all which I assume you meant to be the event of the second coming. That seemed to me to be classic pre-trib because this view advocates that Christ's "coming" will be when when He comes to rapture His Church before the tribulation (He "comes" for His own) and will be hidden and His "appearing" will be at His second coming which will be visible and seen. Yet you also state above that you believe in two raptures, one before the Great Tribulation and one when the veil is removed (at the second coming I presume). Since you believe in a rapture before the Great Tribulation isn't this a pre-trib position also except with some modifications? I need to define myself also by stating that you are the first person I have ever discussed this with who believes in a rapture three and a half years or so into the last seven years if that is a correct designation of what you believe. Why do you place a rapture there at that point in the sequence of events?

Also, if saints are bodily resurrected and translated and glorifed at this rapture and later saints are resurrected and translated at the second coming wouldn't that fact make the "first" resurrection of Rev 20:5 actually the "second" resurrection? My reasoning is that if saints are resurrected at the early rapture before the Great Tribulation you speak of and are resurrected at the second coming then the first resurrection of Rev 20:5 actually becomes the second resurrection and the proper scriptural sequence is broken.

I see the Church vividly portrayed in Revelation and the events of the end.

13 - And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?"

14 - And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:13-14)

If one has washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb I've been taught that makes them part of the Church of the living God and of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

10 - Ands I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of or brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

11 - "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. (Rev 12:10-11)

We know who the accuser is accuser is and when he is thrown down is when I believe the final three and a half years begin to occur. It doesn't speak though of God's people being removed at this point. It rather speaks of them overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they don't love their own life even unto death. Who else of the whole earth overcomes the accuser by the blood of the Lamb but the Church? Who else but the Church even knows of the redeeming value of the blood of the Lamb? Who else on earth overcomes by the word of their testimony except the Church?

16 - And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev 12:16-17)

Who else keeps the commandments of God and holds to the testimony of Jesus but the Church? Why would God rapture the Church at the beginning of the seven years or halfway through the seven years only to immediatley begin raising up the Chruch again on earth? Who are these folks if they are not the Church?

That brings me to part of my original thoughts regarding beliefs accompanying the pre-trib rapture view. In many quarters advocates of the pre-trib view teach that those who are saved after the pre- trib rapture do not become part of the Church? Believers in the Great Tribulation are seen as,

- having washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb
- overcoming by the blood of the Lamb
- overcoming by the word of their testimony
- loving not their life even unto death
- holding to the commandments of God
- holding to the testimony of Jesus

Yet part of the pre-trib teaching is these do not become part of the Church but are part of redeemed Israel which is a separate and distinct entity from the Church in God's plan of salvation. I wonder where this was ever taught in Church history before the 1830s? If having your robe washed white in the blood of the Lamb and all the rest doesn't make one part of the Church then what does is my question. What hope will a beleagured Israel during the Tribulation have but to become part of the Church by placing their faith in Christ? Why would God rapture His church before the Tribulation only to immediately begin raising up the Church again but yet designating that those saved during the Tribulation after the rapture are not even part of the Church at all? So along with questioning the pre-trib view itself, I've come to believe that some of the belifs accompanying the popular pre-trib view may need another looking at also. How many that advocate the pre-trib view know of the beliefs that often accompany this particular view?

Well, I've said a lot and probably too much. I guess my questions might be boiled down to,

- Isn't a belief in two raptures, one before the Great Tribulation, in essence a belief in a pre-trib rapture since one is to occur before the Great Tribulation?

- Whether at the beginning of seven years or halfway through, if saints are resurrected at a pre-trib rapture doesn't this in actuality make the "first" resurection of Rev 20:5 (to take place at the second coming) the second resurrection?

- Why would God remove His Church in a pre-trib rapture only to immediately begin forming the Church on earth again?

- Do you believe those saved after the rapture during the Great Tribulation will become part of the Church or will be part of a separate and distinct salvific entity known as redeemed Israel?

I understand what you spoke of regarding the 42 months. I know of their siginificance in regards to eschatology. If I could of said anything different please bear with me because it wasn't intentional. I appreciate your attitude that condescension and mockery toward others on this subject is not needed or useful. If I find the time perhaps I can say more on Isaiah 25:8 etc. I'm in no hurry for any reply you might be inclined to offer and if I have overloaded the plate just let me know.

Blessings to you and thank you again.


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David Winter

 2013/7/14 11:28Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3653
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 Re:

Who are the Body of Christ, His Church?

Those that are born again of the Spirit of Christ in them, The Holy Spirit being our Teacher of this truth.

The difference is "in them", not with them. At the rapture of 1 Thess 4, these are those that have Christ in them. At His second coming, these are those that are with Him, of whom He and His Church will rule over for 1000 years. There are many raptures, When Christ came out of the tomb, who are those that came out of the graves and walked in the city? They were not born again, for Pentecost had not come yet. All but the body of Christ His Church have Christ with them. These are servants of God, not friends and sons' of God, who have The Christ Seed in them. All will serve and worship God, but all are not sons'.

There is a difference in those that live in the Father's House and those that must partake of the water of life that proceeds out of the Temple.

Christ in you the hope of Glory is the difference in raptures. One as to son's of God, the other "God's people", Which is Israel of whom God will deal with at the second coming to the earth and His throne.

The difference is in the Seed. 1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, (((((not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,))))) by the Word (logos)of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word of God; John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Who are the Born of God? Not the world, but those that God has given the Son, and has birthed in them the Living Word Himself.

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This receiving is not of man but of God by Grace giving reception to those that are given Christ Seed birthed in them, which is Christ's reward and The First in His body the Church whom He will bring into the Father's House, those the Father has given Him. We that are the incorruptible Seeds of the Father, by the Seed of Christ in us.

Without understanding the "mystery": of Paul and separating sons' from the people of God the parousia or eschatology
of The end times are impossible to understand.
The Gospel mystery hidden from all until Paul revealed it, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", cannot be co-mingled together with the chosen people of God and come up with the truth of the end times.

These are the raptured Church of Christ, His Seed,
His Body, His brothers and sisters by birth, fellow heirs with Christ.

Edited for content;

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/7/14 17:01Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1798


 Re: Reply to Christinyou: Who are the Body of Christ, His Church?

Thank you for your comments and the time you took to do so.

Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming.

Regarding the rest of your comments I think I know what you are saying or at least have an idea. I could be wrong and am open to correction if I am but what I think I hear you saying is:

You wrote,

"The difference is "in them", not with them. At the rapture of 1 Thess 4, these are those that have Christ in them. At His second coming, these are those that are with Him, of whom He and His Church will rule over for 1000 years."

Me: I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them.

You wrote,

"Christ in you the hope of Glory is the difference in raptures. One as to son's of God, the other "God's people", Which is Israel of whom God will deal with at the second coming to the earth and His throne."

Me: But after the pre-trib rapture, what of those of Israel saved during the Tribulation before Christ's second coming to the earth? Do you believe Christ will be "in" them because of their salvation or only "with" them?

You wrote,

"Without understanding the "mystery": of Paul and separating sons' from the people of God the parousia or eschatology of the end times are impossible to understand.
The Gospel mystery hidden from all until Paul revealed it, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", cannot be co-mingled together with the chosen people of God and come up with the truth of the end times."

Me: If I'm understanding you your statements are saying that the truth of the end and eschatology cannot be understood without realizing that God's "chosen people" Israel will never sattain unto the stature of sons and friends of God as the Church is privilege to now. You're saying that "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" by the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot be co-mingled with or part of Israel after Christ returns. Meanwhile, I'm still wondering about those of Israel saved after the pre-trib rapture and before Christ's second coming. Do you believe that they won't have the privilege of Christ "in" them but will only have Christ "with" them?

I did the best I could with your statements. I'm wanting to hear if I didn't understood you properly because I want to get it right.

I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost - "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4) I know that one of the beliefs accompanying pretribulationism is that those Jews or Gentiles saved during the final Tribulation will be saved but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that myself so readers will know but I know it is a common belief following the pre-trib view.

Thank you.









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David Winter

 2013/7/15 19:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by Christinyou on 2013/7/14 14:01:45

Who are the Body of Christ, His Church?



"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

“WHEREFORE BE YE NOT UNWISE, BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE WILL OF THE LORD IS,” Ephesians 5:17.

“As the servants of Christ, DOING THE WILL OF GOD FROM THE HEART.” Ephesians 6:6.

“JESUS SAITH UNTO THEM, MY MEAT IS TO DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, AND TO FINISH HIS WORK.

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOREVER" 1 John 2:17

 2013/7/16 0:44
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3653
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""""Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

What is the will of our Father which is in heaven?
It is that we would know by Faith that Jesus Christ liveth in us, for it is not us who live to the Father anymore. ""Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We now live by the faith of the Son of God, by the life of Christ that liveth in us. It is no longer I who live but Christ who liveth in me. By this life I can accomplish the scriptures you have presented.



“WHEREFORE BE YE NOT UNWISE, BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE WILL OF THE LORD IS,” Ephesians 5:17.

“As the servants of Christ, DOING THE WILL OF GOD FROM THE HEART.” Ephesians 6:6.

“JESUS SAITH UNTO THEM, MY MEAT IS TO DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, AND TO FINISH HIS WORK.

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOREVER" 1 John 2:17"""

All these are the fruit of the incorruptible Seed of Christ being birthed in the believer, whom God has given to Jesus Christ as His Body the Church, The Father's Born again sons'. They could not attain to the scripture above without being Born Again of the incorruptible Seed of God, which is the Living Word Himself, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit gifted in them forever.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/7/16 3:18Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3653
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: '""Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming."""

Where did they go? Die again and back into the grave? I believe that they are with Christ and when He comes for His Church, pre tribulation, they will be with Him. Seems like to me that is a rapture.

Quote: """Me: I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them."""

If those saved in the tribulation come out of the grave, resurrected, They will not be sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, they will be with Him on this earth again as when He came for His own and they received Him not. Those that receive Him on earth, will God put His Word in their hearts, etc.

Quote: """I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost """

Only if there is a 2nd Pentecost. The coming of Jesus Christ for His Church, together they leave and the Holy Spirit also.
Why a rod of Iron to rule? What salvation will this bring to the earth? Is Christ ruling in our hearts with a rod of Iron?

Colossians 3:14-15 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/7/16 3:52Profile





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