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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

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RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 237
Bruceton TN

 Re:

you believers need to calm down.


_________________
James R Barnes

 2013/12/24 17:27Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3136
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
RogerB....you believers need to calm down.



Amen Brother! Threads like these is why most folks don't want anything to do with Christianity.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2013/12/25 3:18Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi Bill,

You seem upset over this thread.
Sorry about that,but if the sparse participation needs muzzling,you might end up talking to yourself. LOL!

Here I am amazed at the cordial spirit in here and even at that some are offended?

I seriously doubt that those that come in here interested in the "rapture" subject will refuse the free gift of salvation over a biblical debate.

If you could specifically point to a grevious statement,I will gladly make adjustments, as long as it is reasonable.

God bless,and happy new year Bill!!

 2013/12/27 12:03Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"""""you believers need to calm down."""""

LOL!
I remember a missionary from mexico came to our church from central america.He was told after entering into very dangerous territories,inhabited by withcdoctors and worlocks "you need to calm down"

"calm down" is not the last days banner.

 2013/12/27 13:00Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I can remember my adventures to times square church in new York To be in the great revival in about 1993.

The youth were literally ablaze with Jesus and the anointing from heaven that came in like a wind.

So many were offended by this zeal.

When the spirit of God arrives,there is always offence.
IOW where you find God in power,you will always find offence and the devil.

 2013/12/27 13:08Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 237
Bruceton TN

 Re:

If I offended anyone I'm sorry. Wasn't my intention.


_________________
James R Barnes

 2013/12/27 16:54Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3136
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
psalm1

Hi Bill,

You seem upset over this thread.
Sorry about that,but if the sparse participation needs muzzling,you might end up talking to yourself. LOL!

Here I am amazed at the cordial spirit in here and even at that some are offended?

I seriously doubt that those that come in here interested in the "rapture" subject will refuse the free gift of salvation over a biblical debate.

If you could specifically point to a grevious statement,I will gladly make adjustments, as long as it is reasonable.




It's not me, I have been here long enough to know most of the protocol, it's the folks that might be on drugs, alcohol or suicidal, etc. that might be looking for a way out, that concern me. We have to remember, this forum is not like talking to people on your block. It's world wide, with many different cultures and personalities and beliefs,and states of mind, that may come here, and not all can understand whats going on in threads like this, and not take/accept them as some do. We can't stereotype folks,God made us all different, even to what we accept and understand. I love a good debate as much as the next person, but I just feel there comes a time when some debates here, become selfish rants, that stop edifying. Maybe I just don't understand, and my opinion is out of line, or maybe I do have a point or two, I will let you folks decide.
God Bless
Mr. Bill


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2013/12/27 18:31Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1796


 Re: Reply for psalm1

I'm suprised that you made another reply after almost 8 weeks but I guess that is no real problem. There are no time limits set on replies and I will try and reply in kind.

You wrote,

Greetings my friend & merry Christmas,
I read your post,and listened to the Katz sermon.

Sorry,but that sermon does indeed illustrate my point that postrib teachers have not a clue as to the bride/groom dimension.

You need to listen to it again. Katz does the proverbial uhh,uhh,when the parable shifts to the 5 rejected virgins w/ oil .

Me: Well, like I said, I'm somewhat suprised you made another post on the subject or subjects but it's no problem. The way I see it, I guess we're back to the same point I have made before. It's my belief that after listening to the tape the reason you are saying the postrib teachers don't have a clue as to the bride/groom dimension is because on the tape your view was not presented.

I listened and I didn't hear Katz do the proverbial uhh, uhh, when he came to the subject of the five rejected virgins w/oil. He didn't really miss a beat at that point and didn't pause or hesitiate or search for words and it was clear in the way and the context in which he spoke. He wasn't confused and I'm thinking the uhh, uhh seems to have more to do with your reaction that another view was presented.

You wrote,

"There is nothing at all to the first hour of the sermon. Katz is quoting some woman's assertions and conjecture on the "suffering bride".

There is nothing at all to the first hour of the sermon? Katz is just quoting "some woman's" assertions and conjecture on the "suffering bride?"

That "some woman" you refer to was Basilea Schlink who had the respect of many Christians during her time and ministry. As Katz made mention of, she was one of the few if any ministries who spoke of Christ's present suffering. It's not that common of a theme. Even if one knew nothing of her at all, it still seems difficult after listening to some of her writings that were shared to just dismiss her as "some woman" sharing her assertions and conjectures. The suffering bride she spoke of is a bride that has drawn close to God and is in tune with the things that still grieve Hs heart and the heart of Christ. When Christ still sufferes He grieves over the world and its sin and the bride suffers also because she is in close communion with the bridegroom and has becoem privilege to the inmost emotions of His heart. If that is to be dismissed as you seem to have done then perhaps you are only exposing some type of built in prejudice toward other parts of the body of Christ. Or something. I don't really know what it is but if yo want to dismiss in a cavalier way the relevance of her writings as just "some woman" then you have the right to do so bu like I said, even if you don't know of her at all how can such writings and words be so lightly dismissed.

I took some notes during the sermon and I'll share them as best I can. She wrote and Katz spoke of her words and the Bride needing to ache and grieve and suffer more as it sees and discern the things that grieve the bridegroom's heart today. Katz spoke of and rebuked the merchandising mega minstries today that are financially centered and operating by carnal principles of financial intake. Christ grieves over that. Imagine Katz addressing that subject that amounts to "nothing!" She wrote of and Katz spoke of the inmost concerns of Christ's heart today and the things that still grieve Him need to be more impressed upon the heart of the church. Then it becomes a closer union with Him because the church is then experiencing the fellowship of His sufferings which still occur today. Christ has not ceased to suffer in His heart. Katz mentioned Christ still suffers over a backsliddden Israel and the church may be unprepared in many quarters for another catastrophe occuring against Jewry in the world. Suffering many times precedes any glory the church will ultimately obtain. The tape covered the present heart of the Lord and what it contains and Katz asked how in tune with this heart the church is today. Jesus still suffers when He sees His church and bride being increasingly rejected by society. And Katz said a suffering church will not wait for consolation but will be about the business even now of minstering to others who are hurting and will become increasingly burdened that people repent and turn from sin. He spoke of modern day Israel being turned off by many "unpriestly" (he wasn't referring to Catholics) missionaries. He spoke of Schlink's book, "Repentance: The Secret of a Joy Filled Life" and highly recommended it. He spoke that any suffering the church goes through today in these end times can only make us grow closer to God and the coming consummation we will have with Him. Katz asked if a end time church be willing to bleed for Israel as a sign and witness to them that God's heart still suffers for them and He has prepared a church willing to express His heart to them? And he spoke of the virigins and the oil and 5 of them being prepared for the coming Marriage of the Lamb.

And you say the first hour of his sermon was about "nothing at all."

You wrote,

"Look,you are way,way off on the way you define me,as a pretrib."

Me: Well, I noticed that the way you decribed posttrib people was way off. So maybe we both need to learn something. I'll try on my end.

You wrote,

"There is NO ISSUE what so ever,with the suffering of the believer,and my opposition to it.
You have created a really bizarre rabbit trail here.
We ALL are PROMISED persecution.We all are in the "army".We all have an enemy.The bride suffers persecution.We suffer persecution ...Some more than others.
BIG DEAL!! It is a fact and a guarantee."

Me: I find you paragraph confusing. You say in the first lines you are opposed to the suffering of the believer and then in the last of the paragraph say you have no problem with it. I've run no bizarre rabbit trail. Meanwhile, the way you dimsissed "some woman" and her writings on the suffering bride shows there is some kind of issue here in my opinion. How can such words turn you off is such a drastic way? You seem also to be more or less focused on physical persecution of believers while Basilea Schlink and Katz were writing and speaking of another kind of suffering. They were speaking of suffering within one's self as one grows mor ein tune with and closer to God's heart and therefore closer and more in tune with the things that continue to grieve His heart today. The bride today should inwardly carry yhe buren of the Lord and suffer as Christ still suffers today in His heart because of the condition of the world. This inner aspect of the suffering bride is not much spoken of today and is different than actual physical suffering or persecution. How you can lightly dismiss this may be an indication Schlink and Katz were not just speaking about "nothing." Your "BIG DEAL" speaks somewhat stongly in my opinion and what it speaks is not altogether positive. In regard to your cavalier and dismissive reaction to the bride suffering inwardly as Schlink wrote of, what else can be said or discerned?

You wrote,
"Now, go back and @ 01;08;00 you will hear Katz saying that the suffering is FROM A INTIMATE,DEDICATED commitment to Jesus.

Then you hear him say the bride is glorified IN HEAVEN,WITH JESUS.
Your doctrine prohibits the bride from heaven,remember?"

Me: Why do you patiently endure suffering if not because of your INTIMATE and DEDICATED commitment to Jesus? Is there a better reason out there to endure suffering? Why do you endure suffering? And again, the suffering presented on the tape was not actually speaking of physical suffereing and the like. It was speaking of inwardly suffering as one suffers and grieves over the things that cause the Lord grief. This type of bride is closely in tune with God because of its INTIMATE and DEDICATED commitment to Jesus. You actually seem to be casting dispersion on an intimate dedication to Jesus. What else should drive our lives as Christians?
I heard Katz speaking of a bride and virgins being ready and having proper oil as they prepare to be part of the Marriage of the Lamb. The bride will be glorified in heaven with Jesus but that doesn't mean Katz was speaking of a pre-trib rapture. He was simply placing it in the context of the second coming. He didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

You wrote in the above,

"Your doctrine prohibits the bride from heaven/remember."

Me: Yes I remember. Katz didn't show up any contradictions becuase the context he spoke of when he mentioned the bride being glorified in heaven was in the context of the second coming. The second coming is when the Bride enters heaven and is glorifed. That is the context Katz was speaking in.

You wrote,

"How do you figure that the bride suffers persecution,as promised to any serious believer,then you produce a sermon that is confused about forcing the bride into the GT,but relinquishes the role of heaven and the bride(pretrib has this position),and somehow think you have honestly challenged my statement that the bride dimension is a postrib "uh oh"?"

The sermon being confused comes from within you because a different view than yours was presented. Although the sermon was more about the inner suffering of the Bride today, the view presented right at the end in the sermon regarding the church being glorified in heaven was what the church advocated during its entire history until the 1830s when the other view appeared.

You wrote,

"You really do not understand where we differ, do you?"

Me: Yes I believe I understand where we differ. You believe the church is going to be raptured and taken away befor ethe final tribulation begins. I believe the church is called and destined to be here during that time and that that does not nullify in its eventual destiny of glorification and participation in the Marriage of the Lamb.

You said,

"I do not define you as "persecution/trib. centered."

Me: In your post of 9/01/13 you wrote,

"Consequent to the posttrib doctrine is a preoccupation, not of Jesus' return, but with suffering..."

Me: That soundded to me like you were saying posttrib believers are preoccupied with the coming tribulation and suffering.

You wrote,

"You do.That is WHY you attempt to define us as "escapists that will cave and take the mark"

Me: I did ask the question if as you assert postrib believers are preoccupied with coming suffering then could it be legitimately asked by the other view if pretrib believers are not preoccupied with escaping. Meanwhile, I've never defined you as "escapists who will cave and take the mark." That is entirely of your own making and the phrase escapists who will cave and take the mark is one that I have never heard anywhere at any time from any posttrib believer.

I wrote,

"Yet pretribulationism today largely advocates that these type of believers portayed in Revelation are not going to be part of the Church but a separate group of redeemed people altogether and they won't have the Spirit indwelling them although they are saved. Who now is really minimizing the words of Jesus and in thereby doing minimizing large parts of the New Testament's teaching on who makes up the Church?"

You replied,

"This is completely false.Provide the quote please."

There are many that can be honestly gathered and I have some of them but will wait on sharing them because this reply is already somewhat long.

Thank you and blessings.


_________________
David Winter

 2014/1/6 8:45Profile





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