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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  Zac Poonen

"...I think about 90% of believers, born again believers, and perahps most of you,,, believe that Jesus Christ will come 7 years before,,,,,or as soon as the tribulation starts and secretly rapture the church.
I believed it too,,, as a young Christian,,. because I was taught that.
But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that.
I discovered that it was a teaching of man,,that arose in England about 150 years ago,,.
No buddy believes it in the persecuted countries like China,,, or in the old communist countries,, nobody would believe it.
It arose in countries that never experienced persecution for centuries. And it is a very comfortable doctrine...." - Zac Poonen




 2013/7/7 0:35Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1872


 For amrkelly: Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and the translation of the Church (edited)

You wrote,

"1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him [Christ] coming as the veil of the cloud is removed."

Me: You speak of the hidden nature of the Lord's return proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. So I'm assuming you believe there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church before the Man of Sin appears.

You also wrote,

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His   elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31."

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a  shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

"Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible."

Me: So there will be a great trumpet that will sound and a resounding shout of the archangel that will occur but yet this coming of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will not be visible otherwise? I'm not trying to be a burr but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this supposed coming will not be visible because the clouds of the air will cover and conceal Christ. And before the 1830s, where in church history was the rapture of the believing Church determined to be a separate event from the second coming? Where was it determined one was to be a "coming" for His church that would not be visible and then the second coming would be His "appearance" which would be visible to all? Out of all the studying and praying that went on over the centuries, why was this hidden rapture that is to occur before the second coming not seen or understood by other scholars of the word over the centuries? I'm not a know it all but and I know this question seems at times to annoy brethren in the pre-trib camp but in my opinion it's a very legitimate question to ask.

And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?

The main point though is I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is thought of as describing the pre-tribulation rapture when the dead saints are resurrected and along with the living saints are translated and glorified. Paul makes mention of this in I Cor 15:51-55.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

Yet in verse 54 why does Paul use a reference from Isaiah 25:8 in the same context of the translation of the saints? The passage from Isaiah,

6 - And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined aged wine.

7 - And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering wghich is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 - He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 25:6-8)

Isaiah chapters 24-27 have been described as Isaiah's "mini acocalypse." In encapsulated form these chapters contain the judgment of God on the nations, the earth reeling, God's protection and the final eschaological deliverance of Israel. In these chapters the resurrection of Israel's righteous is covered when corpses shall rise and those who lie in the dust shall awake (Isaiah 26:19) and this is when the Lord will swallow up death for all time (Isaiah 25:8). Paul uses this passage from Isaiah and quotes directly from it when he is speaking of the translation of the saints in I Cor 15:51-55. Since the resurrection of Israel's righteous occurs at the last day at the end of the age and coincides with the second coming of Christ then it's safe to assume on sound exegetical grounds that the translation of the Christian saints occurs at the same time. I Thess 4:13-18 therefore concerns the resurrection of the saints and their glorification and translation ("in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed") along with the living saints.

Why is Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 usually left out of discussions concerning the timing of the rapture? Especially Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 which coincides with Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age. In I Cor 15:51-55 Paul places the translation of the Christian saints of the Church at the same time as Isaiah 25:8 occuring - at the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before. THEN (verse 15:54) is when the saying will come about that death has been swallowed up in victory. When is the THEN? When Israel's righteous dead and the Christian saints are raised and translated together.

(Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) These scriptures show Israel's dead being raised at the last day. Paul undoubetdly connected the raising and translation of the Christian saints at the same time thereby eliminating any thought or notion of a two phased seond coming.

Blessings to you and I'm praying my spirit and attitudes are correct. Thank you.


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David Winter

 2013/7/7 13:51Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote docs "And what of those saved during the tribulation? If to be saved and washed by the blood of Christ is to be delivered from the wrath of God then why will they have to continue in the tribulation since to even be in the tribulation is said to be expereincing the wrath of God? If they are saved shouldn't they automatically be removed from the tribulation since because of their salvation they are no longer subject to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)? Since they are no longer destined for wrath why will they have to endure the tribulation when those before them not subject to wrath were removed?"

Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist?

 2013/7/7 14:25Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View"

HMMMMM,would it not be enlightening to find out what the scriptures say VS what some brethren 100 years ago thought or believed?

No offence but this seems a little desperate.

 2013/7/7 14:42Profile









 Re: For amrkelly: Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and the translation of the Chu

Quote:
So there will be a great trumpet that will sound and a resounding shout of the archangel that will occur but yet this coming of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will not be visible otherwise? I'm not trying to be a burr but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this supposed coming will not be visible because the clouds of the air will cover and conceal Christ. And before the 1830s, where in church history was the second coming broken up into two phases - one was to be a "coming" for His church that would not be visible and then the second coming would be His "appearance"which would be visible to all? Out of all the studying and praying that went on over the centuries why was this concept of a two fold second coming, one phase hidden and invisible and the other phase visible for all to see, hidden from others until the 1830s? I'm not a know it all but and I know this question seems at times to annoy brethren in the pre-trib camp but in my opinion it's a very legitimate question to ask. docs



No doubt it is a legitimate question to ask! Unfortunately it is my intention to draw the thread not weave the garment. As for the return of the Lord Jesus no one should be surprised that it is both hidden and visible. The Lord walked amongst Israel in the flesh for three and a half years and yet they did not know Him. “Tell us plainly’ they said, “are you the Christ?” “I have told you, but you did not believe Me”.

With regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion. 2 Kings 19:31, Psalms 48:2, 48:11, Isaiah 4:5, 31:4, 37:32, Joel 2:32, Obadiah 17, 21, Hebrews 12:22 & Revelation 14:1

Quote:
Isaiah chapters 24-27 have been described as Isaiah's "mini apocalypse." In encapsulated form these chapters contain the judgment of God on the nations, the earth reeling, God's protection and the final eschatological deliverance of Israel. In these chapters the resurrection of Israel's righteous is covered when corpses shall rise and those who lie in the dust shall awake (Isaiah 26:19) and this is when the Lord will swallow up death for all time (Isaiah 25:8). Paul uses this passage from Isaiah and quotes directly from it when he is speaking of the translation of the saints in I Cor 15:51-55. Since the resurrection of Israel's righteous occurs at the last day at the end of the age and coincides with the second coming of Christ then it's safe to assume on sound exegetical grounds that the translation of the Christian saints occurs at the same time. I Thess 4:13-18 therefore concerns the resurrection of the saints and their glorification and translation ("in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed") along with the living saints. 

Why is Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 usually left out of discussions concerning the timing of the rapture? Especially Paul's reference to Isaiah 25:8 which coincides with Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age. In I Cor 15:51-55 Paul places the translation of the Christian saints of the Church at the same time as Isaiah 25:8 occurring - at the end of the age and not seven or three and a half years before. THEN (verse 15:54) is when the saying will come about that death has been swallowed up in victory. When is the THEN? When Israel's righteous dead and the Christian saints are raised and translated together. 

(Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) These scriptures show Israel's dead being raised at the last day. Paul undoubtedly connected the raising and translation of the Christian saints at the same time thereby eliminating any thought or notion of a two phased second coming.



6 The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.

7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us.
This is the Lord for whom we have waited;
Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.”

10 For the hand of the Lord will rest on this mountain,
And Moab will be trodden down in his place
As straw is trodden down in the water of a manure pile.

11 And he will spread out his hands in the middle of it
As a swimmer spreads out his hands to swim,
But the Lord will lay low his pride together with the trickery of his hands.
12 The unassailable fortifications of your walls He will bring down,
Lay low and cast to the ground, even to the dust.
26:1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
“We have a strong city;
He sets up walls and ramparts for security.
2 “Open the gates, that the righteous nation may enter,
The one that remains faithful.
3 “The steadfast of mind You will keep in perfect peace,
Because he trusts in You.
4 “Trust in the Lord forever,
For in God the Lord, we have an everlasting Rock.
5 “For He has brought low those who dwell on high, the unassailable city;
He lays it low, He lays it low to the ground, He casts it to the dust.
6 “The foot will trample it,
The feet of the afflicted, the steps of the helpless.”
7 The way of the righteous is smooth;
O Upright One, make the path of the righteous level.
8 Indeed, while following the way of Your judgments, O Lord,
We have waited for You eagerly;
Your name, even Your memory, is the desire of our souls.
9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the Lord.
11 O Lord, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it.
They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame;
Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us,
Since You have also performed for us all our works.
13 O Lord our God, other masters besides You have ruled us;
But through You alone we confess Your name.
14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
15 You have increased the nation, O Lord,
You have increased the nation, You are glorified;
You have extended all the borders of the land.
16 O Lord, they sought You in distress;
They could only whisper a prayer,
Your chastening was upon them.
17 As the pregnant woman approaches the time to give birth,
She writhes and cries out in her labor pains,
Thus were we before You, O Lord.
18 We were pregnant, we writhed in labor,
We gave birth, as it seems, only to wind.
We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth,
Nor were inhabitants of the world born.
19 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.

21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

2 In that day,
“A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 “I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day.
4 “I have no wrath.
Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle,
Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely.
5 “Or let him rely on My protection,
Let him make peace with Me,
Let him make peace with Me.”
6 In the days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will blossom and sprout,
And they will fill the whole world with fruit.
7 Like the striking of Him who has struck them, has He struck them?
Or like the slaughter of His slain, have they been slain?
8 You contended with them by banishing them, by driving them away.
With His fierce wind He has expelled them on the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore through this Jacob’s iniquity will be forgiven;
And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin:
(Is 25:6–27:9)

This is a very long passage of scripture but it includes your reference to Isaiah made over several posts. I am not sure why you believe that this passage confirms a post tribulation understanding corresponding to an end time completion of time and the resurrection of the dead as a single event. On reading this passage I can see a measure of time in which is included the marriage feast of the Lamb [For all peoples on this mountain (Zion)]. Peoples does not mean Israel according to the flesh it means all peoples according to faith in Christ including the faithful of Israel according to the flesh. It is both hidden from the nations and It includes the raptured [the hiding of a few in their rooms (In My Father’s house are many mansions)] as well as its meaning [Until indignation runs it course (saved from the wrath of God)] then the defeat of Leviathan [Satan] and the beginnings of the kingdom and the nations which are worthy entering into Jerusalem [The Sheep Nations]. It is a passage which alternates between Israel according to the promise and Israel according to the flesh. It is a hiding on the one hand [Rapture] and an avenging of the slaughter and persecution of Israel according to the flesh on the other. Through it Israel according to the flesh as well as those who are not raptured [hidden in their rooms] are perfected [last verse]. All of this takes place on the mountain [In the clouds] or from the mount. It does not take place in Heaven but on a mountain who's reaches are in the clouds. In short it is all predicated on the Lord's return. Yet it is not one instance of time and space but rather one return and several parts.

This is what I can see in these few verses.

 2013/7/7 20:07
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 702
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 Re: on this subject

Thank you amrkelly for the great wisdom and careful consideration I read between the lines of your postings.

Sometimes there is no substitute for the passing of years to help make ones thinking clear and free from the clutter that comes in when we are young and know everything. Why must wine languish in a dark barrel at 65 degrees for 6 or more years before it can be savored at its flavor peak? It was wet when it went into the barrel, and it is wet coming out. But it is not the same.

Oh I have been there with the pre-trib rapture. My grandfather was an old school Presbyterian minister who just knew he was going up before he died, and he held out to 102. Stubborn cuss...

Some years ago, as the wine of my life began to change in the dark barrel, I realized that my pursuit of end-time knowledge was purely that. I wanted details, to know the event sequences, to know the identities of the symbols and the players. I had some notebooks filled with elaborate schematics, but nothing valuable in my heart.

It began to dawn on me that I was not to seek knowledge, but Jesus. And I came to believe that the end times, like everything else, are based on the relationship. The old "Seek ye first the kingdom of God..."

Those who believe in religion seek knowledge, but those who seek Christ long for His presence and delight in His service. They don't feel any need to escape a corrupt world, but to live above its grasp in a relationship with a real live Jesus.

All of which, since I cannot know the details of how God will bring in His Kingdom, leads me to a simple principle for examining these ideas.

Any doctrine where the primary appeal is to the flesh is immediately suspect. Pre-trip rapture sits on the top of that list. Flying away does sound like fun, but being a useful witness in the cauldron of human suffering is what Jesus would do, and did.

He remains my mentor and example.


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Tom Cameron

 2013/7/7 20:09Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1872


 Re: Reply for psalm1: All the saints killed by the Antichrist

You wrote,

"Do you realize all the saints are killed by antichrist"?

I'm not sure the Bible ever speaks of every single saint being killed during the tribulation.

21 - for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

22 - "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. (Matt hew 24:21-22).

Unless those days had been cut short no life would be saved means that some life will be saved. And the days are cut short for the sake of the elect so this is a strong hint some of the elect will survive the tribulation period. Many won't but at least some will even if a small remnant.

32 - And it will come about that whoiever calls upon the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32)

Joel paints a eschatological picture here and states some will escape and some will survive - (those who "escape" and even among the "survivors") so at least some of the saints will make it through.

Besides, some will have to be alive at the time of the second coming after the tribulation because the Scriptures state, "we who are "alive" and remain until the coming of the Lord" (I Thess 4:15). And then we who are "alive" and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...(I Thess 4:17). Living saints will have to be present for this to be fulfilled at the second coming. So some ot even many will likely survive although the number of their brethren killed or martyred will be many.


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David Winter

 2013/7/7 21:28Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1872


 Thank you amrkelly

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit thiough that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared.


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David Winter

 2013/7/7 21:55Profile









 Re: Thank you amrkelly

Quote:
I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I must admit thiough that I am confused on some points you have shared. I may have misread or misinterpreted some of your earlier statemnts when you first replied to me. If I have done this it won't be the first time. But the things is right now is that I'm out of time and have a full work week ahead of me and need to get about resting. I'd like to stay and write but I just can't now. But I'll get back to you and again thanks for your time and meanwhile I'll be mulling over what you have shared. docs



No brother I think my posts are a little confusing and definitely misleading in a sense. I realise this clearly because there can be no getting away from the earlier posts I made which assert that the clouds are become a cover to the Lord's return in the first instance. This is classic pre tribulation teaching. In making this latter post where I say that "[w]ith regard to the actual meaning of “in the clouds” it is no more than understanding that Christ is coming back to mount Zion" it would appear that I am trivialising the assertion about clouds. The reality in my thinking was a matter of obedience in writing about Mount Zion, and then having been obedient, of necessity I would have to say something about the mountain being in the clouds. At the back of all of this lies one single idea or reality. God is not far from any one of us, He is right at hand. In Him we live and move and have our being. When we speak of a place in which God moves, as opposed to all things being in Him, we have gone from His presence to speak of His omnipotence in an instant. the Father and the Son are both of these things. We are in the Father and the Son and yet we can know the Father in His presence and the Son by His presence.

The Lord's return is of this order of events. It is in the end a physical visible reality. Yet it is preceded by a physical and invisible reality. It is a feast become a flight into a kingdom of nations. It is a veil which makes something hidden and a veil removed which is the meaning of visibility. It is the Father's House and the Kingdom of His Son. It is Mount Zion and it is the earth. It is in the clouds and it is on the clouds.

To answer your question about my being one who believes that the church is appointed to being removed before the tribulation. I can say plainly that I do in fact believe in two raptures. One before the Great Tribulation, and one when the veil is removed. I also believe (like the post apostolic Fathers) that the real and only meaningful tribulation when speaking about the end of this age is the only one spoken of in Revelation. It is a mystery and it is unfathomable by ordinary comprehension as though the natural mind could grope to find it's meaning. The following verses represent a tribulation for some saints yet this is just the beginning of the end.

11:1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands which stand before the Lord of the earth.5 And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.9 For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up hither!” And in the sight of their foes they went up to heaven in a cloud.13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is where the Kingdom comes and in the first instance it is in the air. It is also when Satan is cast down it is also when the beast comes into visibility as a beast. This is when the wrath of God begins. Everything before this is an opportunity for repentance. Everything after this is a giving over to lust and delusion. Hereafter is 42 months of the rule of Satan. This is the Great Tribulation.

 2013/7/8 18:12
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: 2 half weeks

Thank you Andrew for clarifying things a little, especially on the subject of Rev 11.

As the witnesses were killed at the end of their 42 month time of testimony, which you say will be a time of repentance before The Great tribulation, (which is a further three and a half years), Do you accept that their is, in total, a full seven years from the initial pseudo peaceful rise of the Antichrist until the Return of Christ to the earth; and does this not conform to dispensational teaching on Daniels last week?

I know, a complicated question

Your brother in Him


David


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david

 2013/7/9 4:46Profile





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