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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1906


 Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

I finally came to a posttribulational viewpoint because of what I honestly think the scriptural view is. I know most can say the same regarding their view. Even though I'm posttribulational I still am pre-millennial and not amillennial and I don't believe the Church is Israel but rather that the Church is made up of those who are partaking of promises made to Israel. I read of all the issues and discussed them with others on other forums and came to be suprised by many of the views that commonly accompany the pre-trib view. I heard it asked if the common lay person who advocates the pretrin view is aware of the beliefs that accompany it so often. When the pre-trib view was presented to me over the years nobody said much about the other views that so often accompany this view. I have been suprised also because of the many different views in the pre-trib camp that can be bewildering to a certain degree. I thought there was more common agreement. I might be wrong but I wonder if many who advocate the pre-trib view know of the many outight reverses and changes that have been made in the pretrib view over the years so as to help it maintain credibility. Many people who believe in the pre-trib view agree with the following while many don't.

1) The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

Me: Since its inception in the 1830s pre-tribulationism had taught that the Old Testament righteous would be resurrected and raptured along with the rest of the Church at the pre-tribulational rapture. This was shown to be a glaring error and was later changed and later even the timing of the Day of the Lord was changed. This history of change can be seen in the following quote,

"In 1937 Alexander Reese published, “The Approaching Advent of Christ.” Before this, earlier pretribulationists put the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation. They also put the resurrection of the OT righteous at the time of the pretribulation rapture until Reese pointed out that the Old Testament righteous do not rise until the end of the tribulation at the last day (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48)."

"It is a little known fact that in reaction to the inconsistencies pointed out by Reese’s book, pretribulationists began to teach that the OT righteous would not be raised with the church at the rapture (as formerly believed), but would continue to ‘sleep in the dust of the earth’ until the ‘last day’ at the end of the tribulation (Dan 12:1-2)."

"At the same time, Reese pointed out that Paul had instructed the church to be on guard for the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2, 6-, as also Peter exhorts believers to be always “looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of the God” (2Pet 3:12 ASV). This would hardly make sense if the church has been removed from the earth seven years before a post-tribulational day of the Lord. The force of Reese’s argument induced some of the earlier pretribulationists to rethink their placement of the day of the Lord."

"After the publication of Reese’s book, pretribulationists moved the day of the Lord forward to the beginning of the seven years. The day of the Lord would now be seen as starting with the imminent, unsignaled, pretribulation rapture. In this way, both the rapture and the day of the Lord could be seen as coming suddenly, unexpectedly, and without preceding signs, “like a thief in the night” (1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10). It seemed the perfect solution."

"In 1973 Robert Gundry wrote, “The Church and the Great Tribulation. In the years following Reese’s landmark rebuttal, pretribulationists taught that the day of the Lord should be understood to begin with the any moment rapture. This would soon change, at least in academic circles."

"Gundry pointed out the simple fact that regardless of where the day of the Lord is thought to begin, if we say it starts with the rapture, then the rapture cannot be maintained as an imminent event, simply because Paul says that ‘that day’ shall not come until the man of sin has first been revealed (2Thes 2:2-3)."

"This is decisive, because regardless of where one begins “that day”, it cannot be disassociated from Christ’s return to ‘gather together’ the church (2Thes 2:1-3). Gundry’s logic sent waves throughout the pretribulational camp, but another strategic adjustment was soon to follow.

"I have scholarly articles published in journals where pretribulationists admit the problem posed by Gundry. The answer for the difficulty was to propose an additional gap between the rapture and the day of the Lord in order to provide time for the Antichrist to be revealed ‘after’ the rapture, but ‘before’ the start of the day of the Lord."

"The acknowledgment that the day of the Lord is signaled by the advance revelation of the Antichrist puts to rest the false theory that the use of the term, ‘thief’, requires the concept of imminence (an event that may occur any moment without warning). No, it is clear that the Lord and the apostles apply this term (i.e., ‘day of the Lord’) to an event that is by no means imminent, as now admitted, even by pretribulationists."

(From article The Rapture Question Answered Decisively By The Timing Of The Day Of The Lord - R. Kelly)

Me: I wonder how many laypeople in the pew who advocate the pre-trib position know of these changes that had to be made for the pre-trib view to maintain its credibility. Epsecially the changing of the Day of the Lord from occuring at the end of the tribulation to including the entire breadth of the final seven years? Notes in the 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible states plainly that the Day of the Lord occurs at the end of the tribulation and the 1965 revised edition of the Scofield Bible places the Day of the Lord as beginning at the pre-trib rapture and including the entire breadth of the final seven years. To say this is a minor and incidental part of the development of doctrine in the pre-trib view is incorrect. Changing the timing of the Day of the Lord to include the entire seven years is a colossial change of staggering importance that affects everything as far as final eschatology goes and is a glaring example of exegetical manipulation in my opinion. Outside of academic circles few may even know this change was made.

2) The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. All those saved after the pre-trib rapture will still be able to be saved but they will not be saved in the age of grace which will end with the rapture.

Me: When it pointed out that the tribulation is portayed as perhaps the greatest time of evangelization and soul winning that has ever the reply I have usually got is that grace will still be operative during that time but more along the lines of how grace operated under the Old Testament era. My thought has laws been that if grace will still be operative during that time and people will still be saved because of grace then how can it be advocated that the age of grace will have ended at this time.

3) The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture. Since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church and the Church will be gone the present minstry of the Holy Spirit will be stopped as it is withdrawn from the earth.

Me: This seems to be a reversal of Pentecost. God is actually going to reverse what He began at Pentecost by taking the Spirit from the earth? Paul stated that "our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;" (I Thess 1:5) so how will the gospel be preached with full conviction and power during the tribulation if the Spirit is gone? It's the Spirit that convicts the world because of its sin (John 16: At Pentecost Peter stated, "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear" (Acts 2:33). In reply, it's usually argued that the Holy Spirit will be gone but it will still be active on the earth. My question then was why would the Spirit leave if it is still going to be active on the earth? The reply has usually been it wil be active as it was during the Old Testament era during the tribulation.

4) Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church. The Church will be gone and the age of grace ended and those saved during the tribulation will belong to the redeeemd entity of Israel which is an entrirely different group than those of the Church.

Me: Rev 7:14 states that "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Yet according to pretribulationism thay are still not part of the Church even though every believer from Christ until the rapture who had their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb became part of the Church.

The question arising from this view has been stated as,

"Does the suggestion that Israel has yet a role to play in the program apart from the inclusion of the Jews within the worldwide fellowship of people who acknowledge Jesus as Savior, Messiah and Lord necessarily encroach on the finality of what Christ accomplished in the establishment of His Church as the one people of God in which all racial barriers have been eradicated? And how can Israel serve both as a type of the kingdom inaugurated at Christ's first advent but consummated only at His second and as a distinct group possessing theological importance alongsdide of the spiritual kingdom of Christ - the Church?" (From "The Millennial Maze" - by Stanley J. Grenz - ch 4 "A Future Kingdom For Israel" - pg 124)

5) The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation. It's present inward ministry to believers will have stopped at the end of the age of grace which will end when the pre-trib rapture takes place. The Spirit will be "with" tribulation believers but not "in" tribulation believers as on the day of Pentecost when "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4). Tribulation believers simply will not be given the privileges and promises that accompany believers during this church age of grace.

Me: When I have heard this belief stated and advocated I have always wondered how one can be saved and born again if the Spirit does not dwell within them. How can one experience the new birth and inward regeneration if the Spirit does not reside within? I've been told that the tribulation believers will be saved but not regenerated inwardly as those who believed before the end of the age of grace that will end at the pre-trib rapture. A new take on the nature of New Testament salvation itself seems to be advocated if this is so.

6) Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation. Since much of the New Testament scriptures concerned the Church and part concerned Israel the parts pertaining to the Church now gone will be of no importance or relevance for those who come to faith during the tribulation since they will not become part of the Church.

Me: I'm thinking that those saved during the tribulation have been reduced to experiencing a second tier salvation altogether if when they come to faith the Spirit will not indwell them and major portions of the New Testament will supposedly not even concern them since they are to not be part of the Church. Poor Israel who will experience this second class salvation!

7) The Church has no role to play whatsoever as far as supprt and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

Me: This may be the point associated with the pre-trib view tha has the biggest possibility of dire consequences as far as the eschatological preparation of the Church is concerned. More is at stake than can be imagined. If the Church is to be be here for the duration and what better people to befriend and witness to Israel than a prepared servant Church that holds the key to prophetic interpretation that will explain to Israel why it finds itself in the predicament it will. When world opinion has turned against Israel and it finds itself harried, pursued and persecuted then there can be a servant Church prepared to lay down it life for beleagured Israel. This Church will be devoid of its own self interests and will willingly accept its tribulational role even as it finds itself harried and persecuted and in the wilderess also. It is then that "those who know their God will display strength and take action and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many" (Daniel 11:32-33). The Church will have the insight as to what is occuring and will witness to Jews and Gentiles and point them to Christ. This befriending and support of Israel will help pave the way to heal the historical breach between Isarel and the Church since it is the Church who so often during its history has stood with its feet on the neck of the Jews. It's God's wisdom and genius to have the Church present and functioning to Israel since the destinies of both are beginning to converge again.

Summary:

- The Day of the Lord does not occur at the end of the tribulation but includes the entire length of the final 7 years culminating in the great tribulation.

- The age of grace will end at the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at the pre-trib rapture.

- Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the Church.

- The Holy Spirit will not indwell believers who come to faith during the tribulation.

- Only part of the New Testament scriptures will be relevant for those who come to faith during the tribulation.

- The Church has no role to play as far as support and witness to Israel during the final tribulational time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, Matt 24:21).

I may have come across as provocative and I'm not trying to. I'm just of the opinion that the question of the rapture and when it occurs is one of very great and growing importance and the believers need to wrestle it out as well as possible. And it's not just whether or when the rapture will occur but as referenced above there are many questions and beliefs that often accompany the pre-trib view that need looking at again in my opinion. Much is at stake as far as the Church's preparation for the future is concerned especially in regards to any role it will play regarding Israel in the future. We may have to try hard but we can look at things again and discuss them in a manner characterized by wisdom from above that is pure and peaceful and gentle and without hypocrisy and destined to bear fruit.

Blessings to you.


_________________
David Winter

 2013/6/30 19:18Profile









 Re: Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

This is something which I wrote early last year in another post. I was just rereading that post when you posted this one of yours. I thought it would be worth adding.


1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him [Christ] coming as the veil of the cloud is removed.

In reading chapter five of 1 Thessalonians we get a clear exhortation by the Apostle of that Church, as to the substance of the confidence he had, namely that the Thessalonians were themselves walking as children of light. In this letter The Lord is described as coming as a thief in the night. Yet the Thessalonians were not only children of light but were also walking as children of light. It is therefore easy to understand why Paul is confident in them. It also reveals something of the nature of the Lord’s return, which in the first instance is not seen except by those who are awake, walking in the light. To everyone else Jesus is unseen as He takes that which is his possession, as though He were a thief coming in the night so as not to be seen. This is of course only “as a thief” in the night and not "a thief" in the night. We are all His righteous possession so we should expect to be taken by Him. Yet if we sleep and do not walk in the light as He is in the light, we will find that walking in the darkness of this hour in which we live, will prove to result in being left behind. Later Paul revisits this theme in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 because some were disturbing the faith of the Thessalonians by reporting that the Lord had already returned in the hidden way described in 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Clearly if there were no substance to the claim that it may be possible to be left behind at the Lord’s return no one could have been disturbed at all. It is also significant to us today to recognise the same test or criteria which will mark or else prove that hour of the Lord’s return in the clouds before He is become visible to all men.

 2013/6/30 19:32









 Re: Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His   elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a   shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18



Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible.

 2013/6/30 20:11









 Re: Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

The provocation of 2 Thessalonians chapter two makes for a test as to the time when the Lord will return as is clearly stated in that passage. What is of course not so clearly stated is at what time the Lord will come in the clouds. In Acts we read about the ascension of Christ into heaven and two witnesses appearing to the Apostles to tell them that as they had seen Christ go to heaven, so in the like manner would Christ return (Acts 1:9-11). The Apostles were said to have been gazing intently into the sky, and no wonder they were, yet as intently as they gazed they would not have see anything beyond the sky and the cloud once the cloud had covered the Lord.

That Jesus was in the cloud, yet no longer visible is self evident. See Exodus 13:21 & 20:21. Also Matthew 24:30. God has always hidden Himself in the clouds when he has spoken to those He has chosen or else when He is bearing witness of Himself or even The Son, as at the Lord's baptism. In Revelations 1:7 we see what the fullness of God's labours are, though Christ return to the earth in the clouds, (as the witnesses said in Acts 1:9, in like manner as He returned to heaven) so that which is hidden by the cloud is become fully visible again, even Christ Himself. "They shall see Him Whom they have pierced.

The Thessalonians passage has to do with a specific event in time, but so is the Lord's return, though we do not know the hour of it. This does not mean that we cannot encourage one another to look to the Lord's return and at the same time understand that we are not actually looking for the thing spoken of in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-9 specifically. If the thought of the Lord's return does not encourage us then let it be for wisdom at least. As the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

 2013/6/30 20:14
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1906


 Re: For amrkelly - a thief in the night and the day of the Lord

Thanks for your replies and the time you took in doing so. I'm sorry I haven't got back to you before now but have just been busy. I haven't got as much time as I desire even now but can share a few of my thoughts.

More so than Jesus coming as a thief for a secret rapture of His church, I believe the day of the Lord is spoken of as coming like a thief on a unbelieving and unsuspecting world not prepared for it. There is a vast difference.

1 - Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

2 - For you know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

3 - While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 - But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief;

5 - for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness.

6 - so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. (I Thess 5:1-6)

Verse 2 shows it is the day of the Lord spoken of as coming like a thief in the night and verse 4 shows that is the day of the Lord that will overtake many like a thief. The same is seen in II Peter 3:10 - it's the day of the Lord that will come like a thief.

The one instance where Jesus speaks of coming like a thief is Rev 16:15. This is when the 6th bowl is being poured out and is near the end of the tribulation and is seen in connection with the great day of God, the Almighty. This great day of God the Almighty is the day of the Lord.

12 - And the sixt angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.

13 - And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

14 - for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 - (Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.) (Rev 16:12-15)

Jesus' reference to coming like a thief is clearly after the sixth bowl has begun to be poured out which is clearly near the end of the tribulation and very near to the second coming and the end of the age. So Christ couldn't possibly have referred to his coming like a thief in connection to a secret rapture of the Church seven years or so before the end of the age. It's not exegetically possible and the statement of Jesus in Rev 16:15 of coming like a thief gives clear defintion and clarity to the timing of His statements in Matt 24:43 and Luke 12:39 regarding the coming of the thief.

I Thessalonians 4;13-18 is a reference to the second coming of Christ and there are sound and firm reasons to believe so.

13 - But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 - For the Lord Himself will descebnd from heaven with a shout, with the voice o the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thess 4:13-18)

This is the time when the translation and glorification of the saints living and dead occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

51 - Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.

53 - For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and thi mortal must put on immortality.

54 - But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal wll have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 - "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? (I Cor 15:51-55)

"Death is swallowed up in victory" is taken from Isaiah 25:8 which refers to the time of Israel's final deliverance from their enemies and the resurrection of their righteous dead at the end of the age. When this final deliverance takes place and death is swallowed up it will be said " O death, where is your victory, O death where is your sting?" This occurs at the end of the age and Paul obviously links it to the same time as the resurrection and translation of the Christian saint as seen by his references in I Cor 15:51-55. Since Israel's righteous are raised at the last day at the end of the age (Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19, 20; Dan 12:1-2; Jn 6:39-40, 44,54; 11:24; 12:48) then the raising and translation of the Christian saints would have to be at the end of the age and ot seven years before. At the very end of the age, when the 6th bowl is poured out near the end of the tribulation, is when Christ speaks of coming like a thief. Thus a secret rapture of the Church to occur seven years before that is to occur as a thief in the night is left mute and unprovable. It was Paul who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit linked the time of the raising and translation of the Christian saints with the raisng and resurrection of Israel's righteous - at he end of the age.


_________________
David Winter

 2013/7/6 11:58Profile









 Re: Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

Quote:
More so than Jesus coming as a thief for a secret rapture of His church, I believe the day of the Lord is spoken of as coming like a thief on a unbelieving and unsuspecting world not prepared for it. There is a vast difference.

docs

1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-10

There is no doubt that this passage from 1 Thessalonians chapter five does not make the Thessalonian believers the subject of Paul’s comments. Verse three makes that clear enough. The qualifying confidence is expressed in verse one and verse two. Both verses speak of the fact that the Thessalonians are not in ignorance if times, epochs [seasons] or the manner in which the Lord will return. It is also abundantly clear therefore that the, “they” in verse three, must be some other than the Thessalonians. Verses four and five similarly express Paul’s confidence in the Thessalonians due to their spiritual condition [born again] as well as their soberness in that they “do not get drunk at night”.

One would have to ask what Paul would have said if their conduct had been different.

Verse eight is the qualifying motive for the Thessalonian attitude. It is the hope of salvation.


1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

These verses deal with the exact same issue as is expressed as “times and epochs” in the first letter to the Thessalonians, namely “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” (v1).

This time Paul expressly points to the substance or qualifying conditions of the “times and seasons” previously acknowledged as within the grasp of the Thessalonians. Clearly they had been “disturbed” and so Paul is writing that which he previously taught them, else they could not have know the times and seasons, namely that the end of this age would be marked by the revealing of the man of sin first, then the Lord’s return as "like a thief in the night."

“..........that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come”.... (v2).

One would have to ask how the Thessalonians could be disturbed so as to believe that the day of the Lord had come. 3:17 shows that Paul gave them a way of identifying his letters by a “special mark” and so it may be reasonable to assume that the Thessalonians were disturbed by a letter purporting to be from Paul. Either way they were disturbed, and the basis of their disturbance was a claim that the day of the Lord had come.

As has been said previously very clearly, the gathering together unto the Lord of both those who are asleep and those who are awake takes place after the man of sin is revealed. Yet this does not mean that it will be necessary for believers to live through that 42 month period of time known as the Great Tribulation. It simply means that he must appear first before the gathering together takes place. As this appearing is according to the working of Satan, then he [Satan] must first be caste down from heaven. He is allotted forty two months with the man of sin and the false prophet according to their various activities (Revelation 12:10 to Revelation 13:17).

The most significant verse in this whole passage for helping to understand this difficult issue is:

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

If you can see this then you can understand why the Thessalonians were disturbed.

At the very moment that Satan is cast down to the earth it is declared from heaven “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come".

This is the beginning of the kingdom come. After this there is yet forty two months left of this age. May the Lord grant us all wisdom and understanding.

 2013/7/6 17:18
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I praise God for you brother Andrew!

Although I don't have the time right now to read and study all that you have written on this thread like I would like to, what I have 'read over' has tremendously been a blessing to me.

I for one appreciate the sacrifice and the price it has cost you in receiving the insight and wisdom of the scriptures.

You have explained the need to being "dressed in readiness" as well as why "there is the warning" to be ready for His coming better than most I have heard.

Please, I hope you don't let this come off as a "flattering" but from a man who is truly "after God's own heart" to another man who is believed to be also "after God's own heart".

I can't help how you perceive it but you have truly blessed me with truth from God's Word and I am grateful for it!


Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2013/7/6 18:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Andrew, I also have been blessed by the knowledge of the Word God has given you. The Holy Spirit is truly the greatest teacher, Himself being God almighty. To see this blessing in other brothers and sisters is confirming God placing His Only Son in the believer giving life and the Holy Spirit Teacher giving truth. Praise God for you and all on this forum seeking the Truth.

This is truly hard in my own conceit, to praise and uplift brothers and sisters, knowing and praying that even I must decrease and He must increase. Why is it so hard to say what is inside ones own heart?

Thank you Andrew and may God richly bless you, that you may bless others.

Thank you rbanks for the unction to give thanks to others.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2013/7/6 19:24Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1368


 Re: Beliefs Accompanying the Pre-Tribulational View

Hi Docs,
1.The tribulation is all about the a 7 year period of time divided in two 3 1/2 yr periods.Anything to do with 3 1/2 year period in the bible is always connected to Elijah.
If you dont study Elijah in my opinion you cannot understand this part of the end times.
2.Also Jesus said "as it was in the days of "Noah" and "Lot"
They did eat,they drank,given in Marriage,bought and sold etc "until the day".
We can see that the earth was functioning pretty much as normal in the two specific examples Christ gave.The world was not post apocalyptic world for the want of a better word.
Jesus went out of his way to highlight that things would be A- normal
b-Normal right up to the day

The problem I have with the Post trib view is this,
The earth is after going through the worst time in its history not alone with the reign of the Anti Christ but also with wrath of God being poured out upon it and people are buying and selling(means their is something to buy economy) eating and drinking,marrying
3.We see that their is no time for the earth to recover to normality after the tribulation in the verse below when it says "immediately after the tribulation"

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I'd like you to consider these points,
Yours Staff



 2013/7/6 20:03Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:


1 Thessalonians 5
"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

chapter 5 verse one starts with the word "But" "dev" "De" this is a conjunction word, : meaning that it is joining the previous thoughts of chapter 4 with what is now being said.
chapter 4 was speaking of the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ rising first, and those which are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Directly from that thought and using a conjunction word to join and continue the thought, Paul says: "((But)) of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you"

The thought continues as he says in verse 2:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Paul has written about one continual thought from ch 4:15 to the present verse of speaking about: "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"

Paul has not seperated the "day of the Lord" from what was spoken of at the end of chapter 4, they are both being included as the same event.

The exhortation is being given to believers so that they do : "not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

What if believers refuse to head to the exortation ?



 2013/7/6 22:04Profile





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