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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



I appreciate you brother and the wisdom in your writings. I like the fact that you don't take sides on issues as a respect to particular persons but clearly on the Lord's side to strive to bring forth His truth in Love as He has called you to do.


I am not disputing the truth in your writings but if you think the attitude and the strong accusations you have made toward the Lords people is from The Lord or pleasing to him, then you truly know nothing yet as you ought to know.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2013/7/1 7:54Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


////Well, this is the general mindset of our time, compromise and shallowness are the standard, and truth is a strange thing to them. The difficult part is, when they realize that all the warnings suddenly come true to us in real time, it's almost to late to influence them to stick with biblical truth. The learning process to put our faith in the real Jesus is active now, now we learn the lessons to fully trust him in even these "impossible situations".////

In first kings ch 13 we read of a man of God out of Judah, whom God spoke clearly to and instructed clearly to. and whom was willing to obey God.

But than came a pious, humble sounding old prophet, claiming how he also was a prophet of God and how he had heard God say just the opposite as what the man of God had known that he had heard.

The man of God out of Judah listened to the feigned words of that pious, humble sounding old prophet and he compromised his inward certainty that God had given him, only to find out in the end that the old prophet had lied to him.
Even though the man of God out of Judah had been lied to, God punished him for his compromise and for listening to the old lying prophet.

And they will say: 'This can not be the mark, Jesus has not came back yet.'

Or, well It has not yet been required globaly so this must not be the mark. (It will be!)

No this for certainty, when you can not buy nor sell without it, and their is no religious exemption offered, It is the mark!

Edit :PS: For any whom may have got the wrong impression, that I am implying that the old lying prophet was pious or humble, that was not what I was trying to convey.
I was trying to convey that the 'man of God out of Judah' had probably wrongfuly precieved that the old lying prophet was humble and pious, and thus is why he was so susceptible to the old prophets lies.

 2013/7/1 8:28Profile


"We should all take comfort from the fact that God Himself will judge those who are prophets even unto death if they lose sight of God and cease to fear Him. Read 1 Kings Chapter thirteen completely. It makes for a very sobering read. See that there were two real prophets both had their words established by God, one unto death of the other, and one unto the proving of a Kings heart to be faithless. The one rebuked a King at the altar of God, and the other wept for his brother. The one spoke truth and God’s judgment on a king, the other lied to his brother. The one who lied, lived and the one who spoke the truth died. There is profound wisdom in this passage for anyone who believes he is a prophet."

Just a personal note brother. The Old Man in kings thirteen is not given a name. Neither is the man of God. It is their activities which sets them apart and not a name or a need for recognition. We would have to actually read the passage carefully and thoughtfully to comprehend it. Asserting that the old man was pious is well short of the mark. He was not pious he was a liar. Yet for all of this he was serving God. Understanding the prophetic ministry is not given to anyone other than prophets. That's the way of it. It must be else how would God set snares for men's feet if not by His prophets? They were both prophets and they were both being obedient to their calling. God is all in all. Let God be true though everyman be found a liar. Amen.

 2013/7/1 8:44

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


This is also interesting!

1 Kings 22:19-23 (NKJV)
Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord:I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead? ’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him. ’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way? ’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. ’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so. ’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12 (NKJV)
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (NKJV)
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Blessings...from rbanks

 2013/7/1 9:16Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


"And they will say: 'This can not be the mark, Jesus has not came back yet."

True this. And I have another one of that kind:

And they will say the lawless one has not been revealed yet.

What they mean is, not revealed to them. Don't fall for this mis-judgment of what they perceive as reality, he has been revealed.

"Know this for certainty, when you can not buy nor sell without it, and their is no religious exemption offered, It is the mark!"

You're on the spot with that last statement, never go into any discussion with anyone that argues over such things as "what does buy or sell mean in spirtual terms" Simply say thank you and leave that discussion, these people usually are able to look at a blue wall paint and inject the idea that the spritual essence of that colour is without a doubt green and not blue.

One thing we cannot overlook in that discussion, and that is, there is a form of delusion that isn't cureable, because when God sends it, it will stick without wearing off:

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What's the cause? No love of the truth. That's also what brings America down right now, they don't hate lies anymore, now they hate the ones that reminds them that lies exisit. Of course you cannot possibly love the truth then, because it requires to take sides, and strongly so. America had this quality once, mabe you can say in the 1970's you could ring a doorbell at almost any house and still find it by the end of the day. Not today, only compromise with darkness and delusion as the natural progression of that sickness of the mind. Pray, you don't have any understanding of how late the hour truly is, especially for America. It's been systematically destroyed from within. And how many can even recognize that? You need to acknowlege something in order to fight it. America has lost that fight, they simply don't love the truth anymore.

 2013/7/1 21:45Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


RE: ///...these people usually are able to look at a blue wall paint and inject the idea that the spritual essence of that colour is without a doubt green and not blue.///

very well said.

 2013/7/1 22:03Profile

Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


by proudpapa on 2013/6/30 14:18:48

RE: //// If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before: "this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet" You will hear it a lot at times when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry? ////

This is why I am so passionate about this subject.But the majority of Chistendom seems to be osas, so to them such a waring is futile. and such subjecs are irrelevent.

I agree... it was a waste a means to an end, perhaps... and yet truth remains, in the inner most part of our human existence... frailty shredded and thrown into the abyss... born of the Spirit and living in the flesh... hoping for a regeneration... and rightfully so... the Pretrib and Posttrib of end times... the flex ation and sanctification of a thought life deep in foreknowledge and void of sin and compassion... living in fragments of infatuation over the imaginery truth that lies within the hope of our faith... it was a waste in vain to the unknown... to those who know, life and peace..

 2013/7/2 9:19Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK


Quote: Pray, you don't have any understanding of how late the hour truly is, especially for America

When God called me he spoke about the days, one thing he warned me about was timings and not going too soon, he warned me about that the devil was going to try and push to get me out of the timings and out from under his protection.

So yes the hours is late but it’s still time to hold and wait, it’s not the time yet for God to move, what we should do is fix our eyes on him and let him prepare us, for the greatest Move of God to hit this planet.

God will have a people that will come of victorious over the beast, his name and his image.

Colin Murray

 2013/7/2 17:19Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699


Quote: """One thing we cannot overlook in that discussion, and that is, there is a form of delusion that isn't cureable, because when God sends it, it will stick without wearing off:"""

What delusion is that? Is it like Peter when he cut off the ear of the Roman soldier? Are we trying to stop what is inevitably going to happen? Why are we not after the heart of God's work, helping those God sends us to enter the Kingdom of God by the life of Jesus Christ that is birthed In us.

What is to be done away with when that which is perfect comes?

1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Is He come in the lives of those who believe? This is the biggest question I know of that all should come to the answer; Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

No matter what we think, say, or do; it will be done God's way.

He is our perfection;

In Him: Phillip


 2013/7/3 0:00Profile

Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


To return to the original intention of this thread here a little bit of history with exerpts from an article by Jim Searcy for believers that have no idea where the pretrib teaching originally comes from.

Most of us know about Darby, and heard about Margaret MacDonald. But they are only contributing parts of the story, not the original source, as Jim's excellent research and article reveals, which starts here:

Short History of Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine

-- "All roads lead to Rome" --

Most of us know people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. As a result, such are not building up their most holy faith to endure to the END of this Antichrist War on the Saints. Thinking one will be raptured BEFORE the antichrist war on the saints is NOT good preparation to endure to the END of such a war. The Lord made it explicit that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation is when He sends His angels for His elect. Matt 24:29-31. Perhaps a short true history of who, how, and when the pre-tribulation rapture doctrines originated would be helpful for you to help those whom you know to be in denial or failing to prepare because of this Jesuit doctrine. Jesuit? Yes, two Jesuit priests laid the foundations of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, unknown in the history of the Church, prior to the Reformation.

At the time of the Reformation, the vast majority of Protestants were convinced that the Pope was the personification of the antichrist. Most today now understand the pope to be the second beast, the false prophet of the antichrist prince. However, at the time of the Reformation, it was universally believed by all Protestants, that the Roman Church was the Harlot Religion System of Revelation seventeen. Today there is still good cause to see the Roman Church as the religious component of Babylon, meaning confusion, in the antichrist war on the saints.

This understanding that the Roman Church is the Religious Babylon brought millions of believers out of the Roman Catholic religious system, during the Reformation. Understanding that the Roman Church is the religious component of the confusion of Babylon, in the antichrist war on the saints in these last days, will also bring millions from the bondage of the Roman Church to freedom in Christ.

Because of how many during the Reformation saw the Roman Church as the Babylon harlot of Religion, it became expedient for certain Roman theologians to turn the attention of the people away from the Papacy. Indeed the Jesuits were responsible for the origin of the pre- tribulation rapture doctrines. It was two Jesuit priests who rightly deserve the title as the founders of pre-tribulation rapture doctrines. These two Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation to that held unanimously by the Protestants. They taught that the revelation of the antichrist was at some far distant date. In the entire history of the Church prior to the writings of these two Jesuit priests all believed the eminent Resurrection, Rapture, and Return of the Lord was a single simultaneous event, happening in the twinkling of an eye, on the last day, at the last trump. When is the Last Day? When is the Last Trump?

It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera who, in the days of the Reformation, first taught the basic ideas of the pre-tribulation rapture. Just putting the revealing of the antichrist way off in the future was a very effective way of taking the heat off of the Papacy during the Reformation. Then another Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza, built on Ribera's teachings and wrote a book called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. True to Jesuit style and stealth, Lacunza knew the Protestants were not going to widely receive a book written by a Jesuit priest. The Jesuit, Lacunza, therefore wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra. This fictitious Rabbi Ben Ezra, was presented in Lacunza's book as a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had accepted Christ as his Savior. By this ploy the Jesuit Lacunza was able to get his book to have a good reception in the Protestant world. No Protestants in the Reformation era would have allowed a copy of The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty in their homes if they had any idea that the book was written by a Jesuit.

Because Lacunza presented the book as written by a scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had become a Christian believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, he knew the Protestants would love and receive his Jesuit book. The Jesuits certainly have not gotten less subtle, and it does not seem the Church has gotten more discerning. Lacunza's book, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, was a very successful, elaborate forgery. In his book, Lacunza taught the new idea that Jesus returns TWICE, or TWO Second Comings. The Jesuit Lacunza was the first in all history to teach two second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lacunza taught that at the first stage of His return He raptures His Church so they can escape the reign of the future antichrist. His book was first published in Spanish in the 1812.

Shortly after Lacunza's book was published, a Protestant leader in England by the name of Edward Irving discovered Lacunza's book. Edward Irving translated Lacunza's book into English in 1827. The Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, 1966 issue, pages 648-649, describe Edward Irving and the controversy over his teachings in Scotland and England in the early 1800's. He was excommunicated by the London presbytery, and in 1833 was condemned and deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland because of his teaching concerning "the sinfulness of Christ's humanity". He also began to teach a "rapture of the Church", after a young Scottish girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision in which she said she saw the Saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation. Her trance and vision took place in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her "revelation" was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and printed in London in 1861.

John Nelson Darby was a leader and prolific writer among the Plymouth Brethren. Darby was part of the Irvingite movement. He was strongly influenced by Irving, and Lucunza's book which Irving had translated into English, and particularly by the book by Norton, of the vision of Margret MacDonald. By 1850 John Darby had organized the Jesuit fraud of TWO second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the pre- tribulation rapture fraud, into a system of prophetic teachings called dispensationalism.

In 1860's John Darby was put on the payroll of the British East India company. The British East India Company has historically been held by the Illuminati blood lines of European royalty, (Greek kings as Daniel would call them). John Darby was sent to America with the specific Illuminati goal of weakening the strong faith of American Christians. Darby's dispensationalism was sure to be successful in America in that purpose for which he was put on the Illuminati payroll.

Americans were and have been proven to be particularly easy to be taken by the Jesuit originated, non-scriptural, doctrines of pre-trib lala land. The reason is because of what is the make up of the people group known as Americans. Perhaps the best way of describing the American people group is one which came from a stock of hard working, risk taking, God fearing, people, who delight in making plans and take special delight in having their plans come together. Americans are good planners. As a people group they do not even want God messing up their plans, unless He would pouf them out in a fabled pre- trib rapture to heaven before anything bad would happen to otherwise mess up their plans.

In America in the 1860's Darby's dispensational TWO SECOND COMINGS dispensational interpretations met with wide open reception across the entire spectrum of American Protestant and biblical Christianity. A lawyer of very dubious character who had become a Congregationalist preacher, named C.I. Scofield came under the influence of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. That brought the Scofield Reference bible and most know the history from that point certainly has led to the great apostasy, not the rapture, but the great falling away from The Faith.

For a good, short, clear verification of this history I would just recommend looking at the article title DISPENSATION which James L. Blevins wrote in the Holman Bible Dictionary. J. Preston Eby has also done some fine work on this subject. Perhaps the best and most comprehensive work on the subject of the history and background of pre-trib rapture doctrines has been done by Dave Macpherson. Dave Macpherson is the author of The Rapture Plot, The Incredible Cover Up, The Great Rapture Hoax, Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin and Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture. All of Dave Macpherson's books are excellent, well written, and well researched. The best source of truth on the subject however, is the more sure word written in the KJV Holy Bible. The GJiGT book can also be a particularly helpful tool in regard to illustrating what the more sure word of God says in full context on the subject of the Great Tribulation. How the GJiGT book is organized makes it useful to quickly debunk any pre-trib supposed proof texts wrested from their context.

The Scofield Reference Bible was destined to have a tremendous impact upon the beliefs of many. There were three million copies published in the first 50 years. Through this Bible, Scofield carried the teaching of the TWO Second Comings and the two stage rapture to almost the whole of American Christianity. It is truly amazing when one finds that this TWO Second Comings, and a pre-tribulation rapture for the super duper saints, and three and a half years of hell on earth for the not so super duper saints, is NOT supported by a single verse of scripture in context rightly divided by the Holy Ghost. Astonishing, yet as Fly told Babe – That is just the way things are. Also, The Lord Jesus Christ said it would be like this – that in these last days of such strong delusion, with such a vast majority of false teachers having been taught these Jesuit doctrines, in the Jesuit infiltrated Protestant seminaries, - Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The truth train of history of pre-trib rapture doctrine begins with two Jesuit priests. The first was named Ribera. His writings influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza. Lacunza influenced Irving, Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and Darby influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced a very large part of evangelical Christianity, and almost the entire Pentecostal movement. Someone once said all roads lead to Rome, and in the case of the pre-trib rapture doctrines that remains accurate.

 2013/7/3 9:21Profile

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