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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi psalm1

psalm1 wrote : ///////proudpapa,here is your "parallel" to the parable of the 10 virgins.
---23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.////////

psalm1 wrote : ///////Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.
Are you aware that there are many degrees and classes of christianns?///////

Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??

am I understanding you correctly??

Is that what pretrib dispensationalism teaches ??
or am I missunderstanding something ??

Do you believe that those whom work iniquity in Matthew 7 are also saved ??

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.










 2013/8/6 12:48Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??



Yes it is a fact that we as christians work inequity.

 2013/8/9 9:03Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Christians working inequity?

Peter comes to mind,with his departure from grace in making circumcison a requirement for salvation.

 2013/8/9 9:08Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

1 cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 2013/8/9 9:18Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

I asked psalm1 : "Are you implying that the "workers of iniquity" are pure saved Christians ??,
just a lower class of Christians, that miss the rapture and have to endure the tribulation ??
am I understanding you correctly??
Is that what pretrib dispensationalism teaches ??
or am I missunderstanding something ??"


psalm1 responded : ///Yes it is a fact that we as christians work inequity///

psalm1 also responded : ///Christians working inequity?
Peter comes to mind,with his departure from grace in making circumcison a requirement for salvation.///

I also asked : " Do you believe that those whom work iniquity in Matthew 7 are also saved ??"

I would still be interested in hearing your response to that question.

Of Luke 13 23 - 29 Psalms one said : ///Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.
Are you aware that there are many degrees and classes of christianns?...///

What I am trying to figure out psalm1, is does your pretrib eschatology cause you to believe that those whom "work iniquity" as in Matthew 7 are indeed saved Christians ?

and of Luke 13 23-29 of whom you said : ///Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus.///
Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?






 2013/8/14 22:05Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote'If you are a pre-trib believer that got taught that doctrine in a youth group or general church setting I would print out that article on the last page and show it to that person that currently teaches it."

I have shown repeatedly the ridiculousness of this methodology.

Under this SAME logic,all of Christianity would have to be thrown out.

What is going on here?

Why do some persist in these rabbit trails???

Look at the perversion of the Holy bible by those in history.

What is next? "I would never believe that bible since I became "educated" with those that have promoted this book of lies"

Do you really look to man for your final authority???

I can handily,easily defend the pretrib rapture using scripture.
I don't care "who said what" along side of me. That is their problem.

Under this ridiculous notion of destroying the message via the messenger,all I need is for any apostate heretic to mention one word against truth and it nullifies the very utterance of God.
This really seems desperate,to depart from scripture and hope for default????

 2013/8/20 0:40Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Proudpapa'Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?"

No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.

I already showed you that christians are imperfect.
The word declares there is a lake of fire for "those that work inequity"
Of course the unsaved are not christians.

What you are doing is broad brushing into oblivion.

To understand the plan of God,I need to know the difference in how God viewed David and Saul.

The difference in saved and not saved is not a mathematical formula or a name in a book.

The difference is HOW the name GOT INTO the book and the strength of covenant and son ship.

I realise you cannot possibly understand the parable because you do not see how the sins of carnal Christians could possibly set themselves up for a place of distinction in heaven.
And yet,it is clear,abundantly clear that God's methods are not fair to man's discernment.

 2013/8/20 0:59Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

psalm1 wrote : ////No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.
I already showed you that christians are imperfect.
The word declares there is a lake of fire for "those that work inequity"
Of course the unsaved are not christians.
What you are doing is broad brushing into oblivion////

Their is no fallacy in comparing Scripture with Scripture such as the parallel of words and phrases used in both the 10 virgin parable and in Luke 13.

I will reiterate the parallel

Luke 13:25 : When once the master of the house is risen up
(Matthew 25:10 : And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came;),

Luke 13:25 : and (((hath shut to the door,)))
(Matthew 25:10 and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: (((and the door was shut.))),

Luke 13:25 : and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;)))
(Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, (((saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.)))

Luke 13:25 : and he shall answer and say unto you, (((I know you not whence ye are:)))
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, (((I know you not.)))

Note that they said they ate and drank with Jesus, and that they where told in response : "I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

Can we agree Psalms1 that the phrases in Luke 13 : (((hath shut to the door,))) (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;))) (((I know you not whence ye are:))) etc. are speaking of something other than missing just the rapture?

and if indeed we can agree on that point.
Could it than be possible that what Luke 13 is implying is the same as what Matthew 25 is implying ?





 2013/9/1 16:59Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

proudpappa """Can we agree Psalms1 that the phrases in Luke 13 : (((hath shut to the door,))) (((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;))) (((I know you not whence ye are:))) etc. are speaking of something other than missing just the rapture?

and if indeed we can agree on that point.
Could it than be possible that what Luke 13 is implying is the same as what Matthew 25 is implying ? """

I can see that the need to make "virgin" into something other than "virgin" is what you are getting at.

 2013/10/27 13:05Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi psalm1,

psalm1 wrote ///I can see that the need to make "virgin" into something other than "virgin" is what you are getting at.///

Your opinion that "virgin" represents saved is not what I believe the context is alluding to.

I feel that your opinion that "virgin" represents salvation in the parable, could be based on nothing other than reading the parable with a preconcieved pretrib dispensational eschatology.

I asked you : "Are you implying by that statement that your pretrib eschatology cause you to interpret that those whom are said of Luke 13 to be "workers of iniquity" are indeed saved Christians ? and that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." is only referring to missing the rapture and not hell ?"

psalm1 you replied : ///No I am pointing out the fallacy of forcing your parallel to the 10 virgin parable.///

I am not forcing a parallel, I am comparing Scripture with Scripture and asking if it could be possible that the following phases represent the same things in both Luke 13 and Matthew 25 :

(((hath shut to the door,)))(((and the door was shut.)))

(((saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;)))(((saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.)))

(((I know you not whence ye are:)))(((I know you not.)))

The phrases used in both are almost verbatim but it feels that your eschatology causes you to believe that the phrases are referring to two completely separate things.

Yet at the same time it appears from what I have gathered that your entire foundation for having evidence that the Parable of the 10 virgins is referring to a pretrib rapture, is only based on the word "virgin" and that it has to refer to a once saved always saved Christian.

Friend you have not convinced me that the word "virgin" in the parable of the 10 virgins represents a OSAS Christian.






 2013/10/27 15:03Profile





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