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a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

Personally I don't want to actually discuss this matter, and therefore don't put it into the other thread, because many here want to simply express their own understanding, and not what the Bible teaches. This short look at scripture is only for those that care about the truth, and not what people think or like, or what any respected teacher or denomination teaches, since it all does not matter even one tiny bit. This is only about Jesus' and Pauls' words, and not about a secret rapture not mentioned anywhere in the Bible for all 'too good to suffer' super duper saints. I was one of those once, that was before I understood this one separation God makes to filter out 'super duper saints': Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Once I got touched by the truth on my (back then) very firm pretrib position I had to publicly appologize to a lot of people since I had previously thaught them my own understanding in this matter, and not what the Bible teaches. That is no small matter, God holds us all responsible on this, and some to their public shame and even death because of their great mistake to misinform and not prepare the flock.

So let's ask Jesus himself about when He said he is coming back:

Matthew 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Son of man is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation according to his own statement. If you follow him and not any other you will respect that above of what anybody else teaches. If you ignore it, you are none of his, just yet. His sheep only hear His voice. Not human philosophy.

1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul describes that event further, and adds a significant second event that happens earlier yet at the same time: "the dead in Christ shall rise first" - He describes the first resurrection, the first ever mention of a mass resurrection of believers that comes BEFORE we together with them (if we are still alive) are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So the first resurrection come BEFORE the rapture.

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Another clear description of the event of the first resurrection. We can clearly and without any doubt identify that when it happens the mark of the beast already has happened earlier. The first resurrection comes AFTER the tribulation of the beast. And so Matthew 24:29 is proven to be 100% correct: Jesus also is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

So the correct sequence is: 1) tribulation of those days -> 2) first resurrection -> 3) Jesus is coming in the clouds with power and great glory

Then the wrath of God starts, everything else before that is just the antichrist trying to establish his NWO and hold everyone firmly under his rule for 42 months.

Now if you are able to see the clear order of things it really depends on you and who do you love more: The truth of Jesus and Paul or false teachers that tickle your ears, in order to confirm to you what you think should be the truth, but is not. That's the choice you have to make, and it's healthier you make it now, because later you will possibly go into full-denial of reality and will loose your faith when you realized you have been lied to by your favorite teacher when it becomes all to evident that we are all "left behind" to face the trial God allows to come upon us all, everyone that dwells on this earth.

The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God, these two are clearly separated in scripture. True believers of Jesus Christ will be "kept" during that time, not taken out. It's the wicked that will be taken out first, as confirmed in multiple scripture references.

So some really clever teaching of lies wants us to identify with the wicked that will actually be 'taken first' - while making us believe the exact opposite is happening, and even makes us think to be special while identifying with the wicked. Classic play on our natural vanity, at its best. Eventually all wicked will be removed from the earth, because earth does not belong to them, it belongs to the saints during the mill. reign of Christ Jesus.

John 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Revelation 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So that we might be found worthy when this trial shall come upon all the world. Amen!






 2013/6/28 22:54Profile









 Re: Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

Quote:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Son of man is coming Immediately AFTER the tribulation according to his own statement. If you follow him and not any other you will respect that above of what anybody else teaches. If you ignore it, you are none of his, just yet. His sheep only hear His voice. Not human philosophy.



This passage is the only "proof" which is cited by any number of foxes on the internet to ridicule and mock other understandings of end time events. What I find truly unacceptable is when this passage becomes a kind of blunt stick and gives rise to certain confidence and then comes the mockery. What this passage proves is entirely limited to what it claims. Beyond that you would have to look further to see that there is also a pretrib rapture as well. Still its of no importance despite the claims which are being made by some. You are either going to be dressed in readiness or else not. Your heart will determine it and not your eschatology.

 2013/6/29 2:46
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Quote: "Beyond that you would have to look further to see that there is also a pretrib rapture as well"

Not one verse in context. None. Not in the Bible.

You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.

For all that have missed the simple logic of the 3 verses that are tied together around the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead saints, I give you a little hint:

There can only be one (1) FIRST resurrection. Now read them again and Think!

How long will be pastors of mainstream denominations be allowed to make a mockery of the word of God and deceive children to believe their non-scriptural fairytales? Don't they have any respect for the truth?





-

 2013/6/29 22:32Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

////You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.///

Hi a-servant


This seems to be very common, someone whom is indoctrinated pretrib, reads the scriptures for themselves and conclude that the Bible does not teach the such.

And yet as of now(and I am sure I will be corrected on this thread.) I have never heard of a post trib read the Scripture for themselves and conclude that the Scriptures teach pretrib

The Scripture seems to me to teach clearly that the wheat and tares will grow together untill the time of harvest, at harvest the tares will be bundled to burn and the Wheat will than be gathered into the barn,

Their does not seem to be a replanting of the Wheat, nor a few immature wheat LEFT BEHIND to than be harvested with the tares.

 2013/6/29 23:07Profile









 Re: Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

Quote:
You're talking to one of once most vocal pretribers of the entire 'christian internet' here, and I defended it with the best of arguments known to mankind, and also know almost every pretrip article of the last 8 years since I published them to my newsletter readers. Its easy to see now how they're constructed, I seriously have to laugh about such low tactics. They all jump to conclusions at one or several points to cover for the emptiness of their claims. These authors absolutely deserve to be held accountable, and we for believing their lies. And I repent and am deeply sorry to have contributed to that confusion.

For all that have missed the simple logic of the 3 verses that are tied together around the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead saints, I give you a little hint: 

There can only be one (1) FIRST resurrection. Now read them again and Think!



I have read these verses many times and I do think a great deal. However, I have never thought trying to defend or else present any teaching other than those which are issues of life, are worth contending over simply to prove the theology. On the other hand every truth of scriptures has its place in the life of the believer, and so I don’t deny that seeking to understand even the smallest truth can be a blessing in the end. This business of rapture seems contentious for all sorts of reasons. Like so many other doctrines it has given rise to heresy precisely because it is divisive if a particular understanding is pressed at the expense of other insights. Rapture, tribulation and the great tribulation appear to fall into this category well enough. Over the last few days I have searched the internet as well as my own collection of books to see what others have said on this subject. The one thing which has surprised me is how this particular verse from Matthew is used like a blunt instrument to strike believers as though they were somehow stupid and can’t read. This is especially true on the internet. It is singularly true from brethren in the USA. Which is why I have said that these verses are the only verses which are cited by a number of foxes to literally beat other believers with its claims.

It is obvious enough from the Lord’s words to the disciples that what is being spoken of is emphatic and clear. What these verses cannot do is discredit other precious truths which have to do with the Lord’s return including the hidden aspect of His return, as well as the meaning of this hiding in the clouds. I won’t bore you with my own thoughts clearly they would be wasted. But I would say that we all have to be led according to our own consciousness and ought to be never led by men……male or female. To that end in simplicity I can see two raptures in the scriptures. One being visible and clear, the other being hidden, needing to be sought out.

 2013/6/29 23:32
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Not on this earth, but in my Father's House, where we are already seated in the heavenly places in In Christ Jesus. The Father's House that comes down from heaven, the New Jerusalem that we come with God And Jesus who are the light thereof, no sun needed.

Word of God Speak.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2013/6/30 5:59Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

quote: "To that end in simplicity I can see two raptures in the scriptures. One being visible and clear, the other being hidden, needing to be sought out."

They call it "secret" rapture for a reason. Because it's hidden so well, only the "illuminated" are able to detect it.

You know, this all reminds me of the stage trick where one guy hypnotizes a large group of people, and non of them can reason anymore with the slightest quantity of intellectual honesty. They simply do not have the ability anymore to even detect the smallest piece of reality on a given subject. I was there once in this regard, so I know that for a fact it had me blinded for a time, I did not care what Jesus or anyone else said.

If you fall over this how do you think you will be able to even detect the mark of the beast? Ever heard this saying before:

"this cannot be the mark yet because we haven't been raptured yet"

You will hear it a lot at time when they introduce it on the market. Can you see what consequences that will have advising other people then, especially for someone that thinks to have a endtimes ministry?

How about you try to be honest to yourself and find the last trumpet in the scriptures, the one Paul is talking about here:

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If there is such a trumpet in Revelation, you will be able to identify it. And then tell us what happens before that, any other trumpet before that cannot be the "LAST" trumpet. Unless you're hypnotized, of course.

It can cure some truly honest people from "hidden secret stuff" someone else has invented to cause maximum confusion at the time when people need help and guidance the most.

 2013/6/30 7:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How about you try to be honest to yourself…………

They call it "secret" rapture for a reason. Because it's hidden so well, only the "illuminated" are able to detect it. a-servant



Its not too often that anyone comes right up to me as it were and slaps me on the face, but praise God it is refreshing.

The words “They call it secret etc.......” are not my words. I know nothing of secrets. If anyone were to tell me they had a secret for me I would be inclined to ask them to keep it secret otherwise it would spoil the plot”. Then having secured their agreement I would reject the plot itself by rejecting the words of men.

As far as I know speaking of something as being hidden simply means that it cannot be easily comprehended. It may also speak of the necessity of not having to comprehend it. Such is the case with the rapture of the saints. The only thing we have to do is to walk faithfully and be dressed in readiness. The rest belongs to the Lord Jesus. Which is why I won’t be drawn into this conversation too much. It is not necessary to prove anything at all. If we find that we are alive at the time of the great tribulation (3 1/2) years and we are offered the mark of the beast I feel sure that I will just have to poke someone in the eye and decline it. If as you are suggesting I won’t know it when it happens then there is not much I can do about that anyway. If this is because I am stupid or self deceived or lacking in honesty then what hope is there for me save for Christ Himself in Whom I have set my hope in obedience to the Father’s calling. Either way the Lord knows. Whether we live or die we belong to the Lord.

 2013/6/30 7:53
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re: Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

If I may share something that's been on my heart. Lately, every time I come to sermonindex, I have been going away not feeling very good. More and more I see people arguing about this and that instead of exhorting one another and discussing/debating topics with one another seasoned by grace, patience, and thoughtfulness. Much of what I have been reading by certain posters on this forum I feel are not filled with the fruit of the Spirit but rather pride and trying to prove a point and win an argument rather than building up in love; I seriously come away from it with a weariness in my heart, to the extent of me not wanting to participate in this forum any longer. In other words, I have been deeply grieved and hurt by some of the things posted in this forum instead of coming away blessed and encouraged and edified. Sorry to be so open, but I love this community and I have been blessed by so many of you on here in the past, and that is why I wanted to share my heart and plead with you all to remember that none of us are perfect in knowledge, and although theology and doctrine is a hugely important element of the Christian faith, even this without love and humility before the Lord and one another is absolutely vain and meaningless. Let us strive to be careful what we say and even how we phrase things, because we might in our over-zelaousness offend our Lord and Savior by making cavalier statements that wrongfully judge and condemn fellow members of the body of Christ; calling them "none of His" for disagreeing on a particular point of theology which is basically calling them unregenerate sinners because they don't agree with you on a not-essential for salvation issue (but not saying things like eschatology aren't important). let us strive to really show grace to others because we, the chief of sinners worthy of hell, were shown the unmerited grace and favor of our Lord Jesus Christ who drew us to Himself through such meekness, humility, gentleness, and lowliness, which we are all called to follow in like manner. i truly pray that God would search our hearts and daily remind us of how small we really are and how desperately we need Him every single day in everything we do and that He would give us more grace to love Him and others more for the the glory of His great name. thanks for reading my small rant and i truly hope it helps bless this wonderful forum that i appreciate and love so much. God bless you guys =)


_________________
Will

 2013/6/30 8:35Profile









 Re:

Well, I have looked for a forum that fellowships around the Word (not around debating the Word) and one that digs into Scripture and shares experiences about walking with Jesus but so far have come up empty. Every once in a while there are really good threads here but that can be true of other forums as well. So, there is nothing unique here. There are certain groups that seem to be camped out in most forums and their mission in life is to preach "their" truth.

If you post more and set an example, you could possible influence others to lay down their sword.

 2013/6/30 9:40





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