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Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread!
Your views are really appreciated and May God bless you richly with the Love of Christ!
Elizabeth you made some good points as well as Sree!
Brenda I didn't realize how much we agree on things, your post is a blessing with truth I have come to believe also!
Andrew thanks for your insight and further truth to this thread you are a blessing!
Gary you have brought a lot to think about even further and I appreciate you doing this, you are a blessing!
Gary your last post I believe is right on and here is some scripture:
Hebrews 1:2-3 (KJV)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Revelation 3:21 (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
I believe the finish work of Christ is consummated by Him sitting down on the right hand of the Father, meaning His sacrifice was accepted and He ever lives to make intercession for us.
Notice how in rev. 3:21 he says to him that overcomes will He grant to sit with Him is His throne even as He also overcame and am sat down with His Father in His throne.
Jesus is the forerunner so to speak and the Author and finisher of our faith. Everything that we are to do, He has already done for us. We are overcomers by faith in Christ who has already overcame everything that we need to overcome in this life.
The is why I believe that our faith must completely rest in Christ completely to receive everything we need for life and godliness because He has given us everything in Christ's finished work for us.
2 Peter 1:1-4 (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Blessings...from brother rbanks
| 2013/6/29 9:58||Profile|
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The Finished Work
It makes my skin crawl to hear these words.
Immediately after Durhams Pentecostal Baptism at Azusa Street in February, 1907, he ceased preaching the doctrine of crisis sanctification: From the day the Holy Spirit fell on me and filled me I could never preach the second work theory again. He still held to it in theory but could not publicly proclaim it any longer.
Durhams teaching, which quickly gained the name The Finished Work, can be summarised in this way:
1. He alleged that there is no Scriptural basis for a two-step experience (i.e., justification and regeneration, followed by a separate experience of sanctification) leading up to Spirit baptism. Everythingforgiveness, salvation, new birth, and sanctification come to Christians in the atonement, the single finished work of Christ.
2. In that finished work, the old man was crucified, and Sin was eradicated from the believers heart. (This is an important point to which we will return later.) In other words, sanctification was immediate and contemporaneous with regeneration. The Christian received everything at the same time.
3. From regeneration moving forward, then, sanctification was progressive, that is, the believer could grow in grace, maturity, and the fruit of the Spirit.
4. Only the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as Pentecostals understood the phrase) came as a subsequent experience.
The rancour caused by this new teaching escalated to the point where Pentecostal veteran Charles Parham (who never wavered from his strong support of Wesleyan sanctification) weighed into the fray in early January 1912. He prayed a remarkably rash and (as it turned out) prophetic prayer.
If this mans doctrine is true, let my life go out to prove it; but if our teaching on a definite grace of sanctification is true, let his life pay the forfeit.
Friend or foe, it must have caught everyone off guard when Durhamin the prime of his life and just shy of his fortieth birthdaydied suddenly on July 7th of that same year. Says James R. Goff, Jr., one of Parhams biographers, Parham felt that God had properly answered his prayer. Foes of Durham and his Finished Work teaching were sobered, no doubt, but rejoiced because they felt their cause and doctrine were exonerated and vindicated. Durhams supporters, if they gave the timing of Durhams death any thought at all, didnt admit to seeing anything ominous in it. They gave him a memorial service with glowing eulogies and ample tributes.
But in theology, as in war, the losers dont get the last word and they certainly dont write the histories. The winners, Durhams spiritual heirs the Assemblies of God, the Foursquare Church, and othersall continue to pay tribute to Durham as the spiritual and theological innovator and father of their belief system regarding sanctification. Once they clearly won the field of battle, they became more magnanimous toward their second-blessing brethren, and the issue now seems to garner little interest, except perhaps among historians. For the majority of Pentecostals, the three-step ordo salutis is dead, replaced by Durhams two-step approach
And that is why the church is in such a mess......
| 2013/6/29 10:14||Profile|
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Thanks for your contribution to this thread Colin!
I am familiar with the AOG and am a part of the IPHC.
I love what Christ did for me on the Cross and that He finished the work that His Father gave Him to do for our redemption.
We are to go from faith to faith and glory to glory as we behold Him to be conformed to His image. We are predestined to be conformed to His image and it is impossible for us to arrive without His finished work.
I would also say that those of the second blessing camp have created a mess also in creating plenty of self righteous religious people who love their own holiness more than the people Christ died for. They were more concerned with being holy enough to get to heaven that didnt seem to care about compassion toward the loss and to minister to others.
There is so much more to be said but unless we understand the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and how He gave himself to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify unto Himself a treasured people zealous of good works, we will still be messed up.
Blessings...from brother rbanks
| 2013/6/29 10:39||Profile|
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Thanks for that link which I am working my way through.
A new kind of `baptism`started to take place at Azusa which was not the real thing at all, that is, entire sanctification, and which is still taking place amongst Pentecostls and charismatics.
Jessie Penn-Lewis spoke against this new experience as being from Satan. I will quote an article she has in War on the Saints after this post as it is lengthy.
It is interesting that Durham stopped preaching ES after his supposed baptism and his later behaviour seems to prove that he had not been ES'ed.
I believe it was this camp, which caused the confusion and not those who had genuinely received the second blessing and gave it a bad name.
| 2013/6/29 11:06|
| Re: an extract from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann published in Germany and printed in the OVERCOMER|
"They (heathen systems such as theosophy, new Buddhism, and spiritism) also produce revatations and prophesies, speaking and singing with tongues, healing and miracles..It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about.
The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject are giving increasing insight into this dark realm. Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man which until now have been totally unsuspected.
They are designated "subliminal powers" and we speak of "subconsciousness". What physical occurances accompany these phenomena?
The lower-nerve centres (the ganglionic system or the vegetative nerves as they are called) which have their chief seat in the region around the pit of the stomach, are excited to increase activity.At the same time , the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system) which in the normal state of affairs is the medium of the conscious perception and action becomes paralysed.
There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ, loosing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness or artificially by hypnotism, auto suggestion etc and possitively by the lower nerves being in some way excited ARTIFICIALLY to increase activity, whereby they get the upper hand.
These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs do not posseee, they receive impressions from the realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance,prophesy and speaking in tongues.
When in this state of somnambulism, the inner sense heightened by its activity perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, and this takes place according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists through the pit of the stomach ie through the nerves which have their seat in this region....And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in the speaking of tongues)
Those in whom the sub-consciousness becomes active in this manner described above feel as it were an ELECTRIC STREAM passing through the body which is an exciting of the nerves which have their central seat at the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in the speaking in tongues.
One of the leaders of the Pentecostal Movement in describing the so called Baptism of the Spirit in his body made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. This simile was incomprehensible to me until I heard an almost identical one from a Mohammedan sooth sayer, Tewekkul Beg, describing how he would get into AN ECSTATIC STATE.
He says "After my eyes were bound, Isaw something in my inner being resembling a fallen tumbler......When this object was placed upright, a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being."
By exciting the lower nervous system, a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced.
It is evident that in these phenomena we have the exact opposite of what the Scriptures understand by the communion of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the soirit of man HE IS BROUGHT BACK TO A NORMAL CONDITION. The spirit acquires the full authority given to it by the Creator over the powers of the soul and through the soul, the body. The concious persona; life is once more completely under authority of the spirit
| 2013/6/29 11:07|
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oh well, another thread gone astray just like many others.
It seems we just can't stay with the original post.
Anyway, God bless all who contributed!
I hope to continue to be a blessing and be blessed by others in the Lord, but I think I'm going to stop starting anymore threads for a while.
Blessings...from brother rbanks
| 2013/6/29 11:18||Profile|
From Liverpool but now in West Sussex, England
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what is the 2nd blessing ?
| 2013/6/29 18:35||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
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The problem I saw come into the discussion on this thread is confusing the reception of the Baptism of the Spirit of Christ as ignored if one believes the Cross of Christ is a finished work and the blood of Christ fully satisfied God.
Romans 6 clearly shows that Jesus could not send the Holy Spirit until He was resurrected and glorified. And then He sent that "which you see and hear" as He was at the right hand of the Father in Heaven and poured out the Spirit upon the Church. Where a confusion can occur is if we believe that one is not regenerated and born-again unless they receive a second work of the Spirit. To believe such is not Biblical.
It is clear in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit in many times is received upon Baptism just as Jesus Christ received the Spirit that way. There can be many baptisms and fillings of the Spirit for power to witness and for the love of Christ to be manifest more in one's life. The Spirit is given by grace as a deposit to all true believers. If one is not a true believe they do not have the Spirit of Christ in them.
To realize that Jesus Christ paid our penalty before God 100% and gives us His Spirit by grace and faith is to have us full of joy and thankfulness for what God has done. And hence such true believers will give their entire life to the service of Jesus Christ because of Him buying them at such a great price.
And such a believer truly desires all God has for him or her. And desires to serve the Lord "in view of God's great mercy to them" (Romans 12:1).
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2013/6/29 19:39||Profile|
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your very welcome brother rbanks your a blessings your self to sermon index
| 2013/6/29 21:33||Profile|
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I never said in my post that it is a biblical command not to use unscriptural terms in teaching. I only said it is my conviction based on experience. One may agree or disagree. To me to use such terms sounds like using my own idea of truth instead of the way god presented the truth. Given an oppertunity to speak in church my payer is often not to speak out of my own wisdom but to speak by the wisdom given by god. Sticking to scriptural terms is a way to avoid self glory. Also like I already said the term finished work sounds more like the work is already finished pertaining to our salvation. But the truth is god still wants to work inside us.
I agree with the post of Greg and another brother who posted about the work done by Jesus is tearing of the veil in most holy place. The symbol here is because of what Jesus did for us, we now have access to most holy place where god dwells. Because of his work we are redeemed from the bondage to sin. This work can be compared to what god did to Israelites through Moses. He took them out of the slavery in Egypt.
But the god's promise to Israelites is not just freedom from slavery of Egypt. It is also to take them into promise land. God directed them into promise land by a cloud. This is the symbol of Holy Spirit who guides the believers into christlikeness through his sanctifying work. Many Israelites did not enter the promise land because they did not believe in 2nd part of Tod's promise. Same is the case of many believers who do not believe in scarifying work of the spirit. God's full purpose for their salvation will not be fulfilled.
| 2013/6/29 23:45||Profile|