| Pre or Post Trib Discussion|
My prayer for the Church in the West is to be prepared for persecution, be prepared for the rapture, by staying close to our Saviours side. As Jesus said, 'watch and pray'. so let us pray for the body of Christ, that we will not be found wanting when He comes. Amen
| 2013/6/28 16:08||Profile|
| Re: Pre or Post Trib Discussion|
good word Diosesfiel,
brother rbanks wisely said in the other thread ///I am a pre-trib believer who could be a post-trib believer.///
I am a post-trib believer who could be a pre-trib believer.
| 2013/6/28 17:04||Profile|
| Re: Pre or Post Trib Discussion|
This is pretty much my default position.
I used to believe in a "left behind" pre-trib rapture scenario, because that is all I was ever taught and I never studied it for myself.
I now do not believe in a pre-trib rapture- not even sure i believe is a literal 7 year trib period.
However, I have not changed how I live my life- my goal was then and is now to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. If I am a devoted follower of Him, I will be ready, regardless of which scenario is true.
| 2013/6/28 17:07||Profile|
| Re: Great Tribulation|
Andrew, you wrote:
"What cannot be ignored, regardless of our personal revelation, is the distinction between the literal "short time" which Satan will have in the end, and all other times which precede it."
You are right, the scripture shows a clear distinction between what tribulation is like now for His saints and what it will be like in the great tribulation. And the difference is that for that short time, satan is cast down to the earth from the heavenlies. For three and a half years he will be manifested on the earth both by himself as dragon and through the beast and the false prophet. Try to imagine it! Jesus also ministered physically for the same time on the earth as a time of blessing, healing and salvation. For satan it will be the opposite.
For us saints living today, and for the time when Jesus walked among us satan is the prince of the power of the air and acts through temptation and as the accuser of the brethren. In his future short time on earth he will act differently (but all under the authority of God), to deliver the saints unto death.
I personally cannot believe that the saints being delivered unto death in that time can be the same as us today. I cannot comprehend the Father leaving us in this world with satan physically manifested here. Jesus was tempted like as we are and was accused by both man and by satan, but not through a physical manifestation; and as He is, so are we in this world.
Proudpapa quoted Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I must ask; is this the cry of the saints today, for judgement and for vengeance? Or are they, as I believe, a different class of saints.
| 2013/6/28 17:10||Profile|
| Re: |
All the points you raise can be adequately answered by a person in the partial preterist/post trib or no trib camps.
It seems the point of this thread is not to argue points that have been debated (and unsolved) for years, but rather to encourage us onward to go deeper with Christ, in which case the things of this world will grow strangely dim.. including eschatology things.
I guess my bottom line question is this:
If you are a devoted follower of Christ, why care or worry about what might or might not happen? We are to be anxious for nothing.
| 2013/6/28 17:32||Profile|
| Re: |
I am a firm believer that Jesus is going to come back for His bride. Do I know exactly when? Nope. Do I know when in reference to world events? Not exactly. But I know what His coming will be like, at the least and I know I should be ready for it.
I am concerned that many, many believers (not to mention those who are in the church but not really saved) are unprepared for both His return and the persecution that those who want to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will endure. I am no prophet, but I believe that the USA is on the brink of a persecution that it has never seen before. Forget what our laws say. Forget what our country was founded on. It only takes a spark to ignite a firestorm. Just like at the stoning of Stephen. All of a sudden persecution everywhere erupted against believers.
| 2013/6/28 17:34||Profile|
| Re: |
davidc wrote: ////I personally cannot believe that the saints being delivered unto death in that time can be the same as us today. I cannot comprehend the Father leaving us in this world with satan physically manifested here. Jesus was tempted like as we are and was accused by both man and by satan, but not through a physical manifestation; and as He is, so are we in this world.////
What Scriptures would cause you to conclude that the Saints today are somehow more important to God or more protected by Him and a different class of Saints than what the Saints of Rev. 6 - 7 are ?.
davidc wrote ///I must ask; is this the cry of the saints today, for judgement and for vengeance? Or are they, as I believe, a different class of saints.///
Listen to what Paul said :
2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works
davidc, maybe if you go through what the Saints in Rev. 6 - 7, will go through, than maybe you will understand why they cry "with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
| 2013/6/28 23:02||Profile|
| Re: outside the rapture box|
Pre-tribulation rapture and post-trib rapture, and mid-trib if any body is in that notion, focus on a very physical catching away of believers. The idea seems to be that the sky opens up and a giant image of Jesus, like a renaissance painting, will extend a beckoning hand and the believers will see the force of gravity dissolve as they rise to His arms.
It just doesn't seem to me to flow with some of the things Jesus has said, and the very specific things Paul mentions in his writing.
For example, Jesus spoke of coming to make His home inside of us, and Paul forcefully says that the hope of glory is Christ in you. His teaching in Corinthians about being changed in the twinkling of an eye to immortality is assumed to be part of the fly-away program, but Paul does not say that.
The image of "rapture" if we want to use that word, is the image Peter, James, and John saw when Jesus was transfigured right in front of their eyes. The man of flesh became the immortal man of the Spirit, but knew that if He kept it, His disciples would be lost. He took it off and went to buy the rest of us. We are given a glimpse of what is coming, fulfilling those words "that where I am, ye may be also."
In all of this, there is no need to "go" anywhere. As many have mentioned here, our eyes need to be fixed upon Him, and to trust that when He comes to be one with his bride we won't be caught looking elsewhere!
As I alluded in the other thread on this, I believe it is Christ's earthly mission to drive Satan and the works of his demons right off the face of the earth that God's will be done here as it is in heaven. If the words of Psalm 149 are to be believed, it looks like we will have a big part in that.
I am nobody. No great scholar, minister, man of political influence. I don't have any skill in Greek, know very little Hebrew either. You are in no way obligated to my words, but I do have a great hope and expectation for the future even as the sun seems to be setting on Western Civilization.
The Father loves the Son and all who belong to Him, there will be a great wedding, and the will of God will one day be the only governance of humankind. The assurance is in my heart that I will be a part of it, even so Come Lord Jesus!
| 2013/6/29 0:07||Profile|
| Re: |
Do you let "End Times Prophetic Belief Systems" divide you from your brother?
If so, it does not matter what you believe then about when the Lord comes back.
Some people can't tell the difference between Tribulation and Great Tribulation. If being tortured and eventually killed is Tribulation, then I don't think "Great Tribulation" has much meaning. Put it this way, those who are in Tribulation are probably convinced it is Great Tribulation and I would be, too.
So, is Great Tribulation a quantitative or qualitative difference and how do you know? Because if you are being tortured, it doesn't matter what anyone says, you will think you are going thru Great Tribulation.
Silly, aren't we?
| 2013/6/29 1:03|
| Re: Pre or Post Trib Discussion|
"My prayer for the Church in the West is to be prepared for persecution, be prepared for the rapture, by staying close to our Saviours side. As Jesus said, 'watch and pray'. so let us pray for the body of Christ, that we will not be found wanting when He comes. Amen"
As I see the rapid deterioration among the powers that be it seems as though it is a cauldron of devils squirming about...as we see this we get frightened and think surely the end time is upon us.
Then I go outside. The morning is crisp, the sun shines brightly, the birds sing, crowd my bird feeder entertaining me in the process; the flowers are blooming. The rain watered the earth; my neighbors - both black and white - are decent people. The dog wants to be petted - a gift given to me by my granddaughter. My husband goes to the greenhouses, I stay home and work - nobody is threatening us with any weapon. The customers are kind, respectful and in good humor. The sun keeps shining and sometimes clouds float on by. It may get hot but it will not last forever - we have learned that.
And then there is the WORD. It comforts us, teaches us that life will be hard for those who trust in the LORD. As I look at nature, the sun rising and setting of each day - who controls that? Certainly no government decree or court does... Or, who sends the rain, the wind? Uncle Sam surely doesn't. As I see these two forces operating, it reaffirms to me that God is just,and beautiful. It is man who messes things up - always. And this is what the book of Revelation is about. God using nature to impress upon man his limits and drives home the futility of his sin and rebellion. God is in control, we see it every morning and the end of the day reaffirms it.
Man is at war with God and he will win. The battle will get bloody, at times. But He will win and if we follow him that means we will be victors as well! Hallelujah! So let us be ever watchful and not allow the devils to distract us from whatever he throws our way!
| 2013/6/29 8:31||Profile|