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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


////I disagree with that statement.It is not clear at all that we all will have tribulation in the end times as it pertains to the 7 year period which is what the rapture is all about.////

Ginnyrose did not say anything about 7 years, She said "end times" her statement is biblical

Mathew ch 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 2013/6/28 8:27Profile


Chris there a distinction has to be made between God's wrath and persecution of God's people. Persecution is not God's wrath and God"s wrath is not persecution.

In Rev.6 where there is the breaking of the seals by the Lamb there is a marked difference between the fifth and sixth seals.

The fifth seal in Rev.6:9-11 describes those who have been nartyed for their stand for the Word of God and their testimony. Indeed their cry is for God to judge the workd and avenge their blood. For Gid to pour out his wrath. By the way these martyrs were not saved by a Pretrib rapture from persecution.

The sixth seal that was broken in Rev.6:9-12 is God's wrath being poured out on the earth. These are the non believers who are terrified that God's wrath unmixed with mercy is being poured out. Believers are not in this. Presumably they have all been nartyed and are with Christ.

Again the issue must be clarified. The issue is a Pretrib rapture that delivers from persecution. This is what the popular notion is in the west. Their idea is the western saint will sail to heaven on flowery beds of ease while the church in China and Iran sales through stormy seas.

There will be a gathering of God's chosen from the four ends of the earth. No doubt it will be before God does pour out his wrath. But a Pretrib rapture that delivers from persecution is found lacking scripture warrant in the New Testament.


 2013/6/28 8:35

 Re: The weakness of pretrib teaching

A few may be familiar with the story told by Corrie Ten Boon. For several years the Chinerse church held to a belief the rapture would come and deliver them from the scourge of communist persecution. When such a rapture did not take place. Many lost their faith in Christ and fell away.

More recent is the tragedy of Harold Kamping. A few years ago he predicted the rapture would come and take away the church. Some simple Vietnamese saints believed him. They went out to wait for the rapture. When it did not come. The Vietnamese military came in and gunned down these pour souls and threw them into a common grave. So they did go to be with Jesus. But many missionaries had to work to undo Kamping's erroneous teaching.

My own understanding is a Pretrib rapture is a western invention that teaches an easy way to heaven by not going through persecution. Yet verses like Romans 8:17.says tha we suffer with him so that we may be glorified with him. All to often we want the glory without the suffering.

Yet the aspect of suffering is not taught in our western churches. You surely will not hear from the likes of certain popular preachers. After all this is your best life now.

Even in this forum some feel persecution is being rammed down their throats. Ok. Go back go back to la la land. Then wonder why the persecuted in places like N. Korea and Eritrea are being honored by Jesus.


 2013/6/28 9:01


For me it’s always been easy as when God called me, he told me that he was going to raise me up for the last days. Colin Murray

This has been the only way I can understand the end times because like Colin I knew from the outset that I was called to an end time ministry. This includes persecution and then in finality death. I am not sure what the answer really is for others who have no such certainty. What cannot be ignored, regardless of our personal revelation, is the distinction between the literal "short time" which Satan will have in the end, and all other times which precede it. Unless mankind is in finality drawn to a place of being without excuse in an age where the gospel is so freely available, how will God judge. Revelation tells us that the wrath of God poured out on the nations will have no effect and "they will still not repent".

I think Chris said it very well when he shared that distress and troubles make us ordinarily turn to the Lord as a matter of instinct. How much more an exceptional wrath of God ought to compel unbelievers to know their need for God at least and to cry out to Him for mercy and deliverance? Yet they will not. This shows something of the condition of all men in this "short time" being spoken of. It is an end of age measure of time, set and limited by the Father, the end of which is the herald of His Son come in visibility of the Father's glory.

Another thing which must be true is a simple and obvious one. Those who are being saved in Iran, North Korea and China for example and who face persecution because the government hates them, must know this when they are saved. It is part of the knowledge of the Lord. It must come with the grace of God sufficient to that calling. There is no need to confuse the calling of saints in circumstances where even death is possible for the faith, with those who are yet saved in circumstances where compromise and greed have led to a comfortable walk, or where governments have not been openly against them. The change which is coming will make the distinction no doubt, but I still wonder if the USA is not a kind of forerunner for what will eventually come to the whole world.

 2013/6/28 9:19

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472


"Ginnyrose, would you please furnish those of us on this forum with your source for the above statement you have made."


I became aware of this philosophy many years ago when visiting with an older lady who was giving seminars at a ladies retreat. She was a liberal Mennonite - do I need to say any more, or are you still in the dark? This encounter awakened me to the reality of a doctrine unknown to me heretofore but encountered since in conversations with other liberal Mennonites.

Liberal Mennonites are pacifists, and in the process believe Christians can usher in a peaceful world politically. Now, this is a general view with lots of variations. It would not surprise me if a liberal Mennonite would come on board and castigate me. Yet, this is the attitude of these people. They do not believe in a literal millennium in which Jesus will sit on the throne in Israel and rule. They also work at peacekeeping between warring nations with the USA rendering humanitarian aid to these governments. Is this wrong, or is it right? They work to make peace with enemies of the cross via political means - apart from the cross. This is the bottom line.

(Years ago "Christianity Today" published an article about VORP - Victims Offenders Reconciliation Program. I got very interested in this program so I called them and talked to them about it. They employed psychology in bringing about reconciliation between [criminal] offenders and their victims. The mediator was not to introduce the spiritual dimension at all. The victim could but not the mediator. If I recall she was Brethren.)

Liberal Mennonites are at the extreme end of amillennialism. The ones at the opposite end of this spectrum are very different. They do not believe in a literal thousand year reign either, do not believe in using political means to bring about world peace. Large variation.

Savannah, you asked a pointed question and I answered it to the best of my knowledge. I hope this will not distract from the ongoing discussion. The reality is there are people out there with weird and unBiblical views of the end-times.

Good thing God is not subject to operate according to man's philosophy; he would never return if he waited on a consensus from the people.

This will either answer your question or muddle your brain some more.

Sandra Miller

 2013/6/28 9:44Profile

Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: End Times

Wow, what a discussion!

Just a question for a ponder-

When Jesus gave the disciples instructions on how to pray, He said these famous words: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

The question is whether He was making a lovely wishful statement, or was He speaking a prophetic word for God's desire regarding the way the earth would one day be?

For me, I lean toward the latter.

Psalm 149 comes to mind, "...Let the high praises of God be in their mouths and a two edged sword be in their hand, to execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples, to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written. This is an honor for all His godly ones."

Sounds to me like the place to be is right here, dealing with the crap and swinging that sword...? (I know- the Bible...)

Tom Cameron

 2013/6/28 11:38Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



It is amazing how some Christians get bent all out of shape over different theological views.


Bearmaster are you under great distress on a daily basics? Are you being persecuted on a daily basic? Are you upset that people in the west are not being persecuted like some in other regions?

Jesus is building a glorious church and He only has one church. He doesn't have two churches where one is called the persecuted church and everybody else who are not going through certain kinds of persecution are a different class or less of a church.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2013/6/28 13:29Profile


Posting some resources for discussion purposes.

Dave Macpherson Post-Trib Writings and Research



The Unoriginal John Darby

Deceiving and Being Deceived

Scholars Weigh My Research

LaHaye's Temperament

 2013/6/28 14:11

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37303
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


It is fine to discuss the post-tribulation rapture in the forums on SermonIndex. But towards this thread I did not realize the video that started the thread is an exclusive project starring: pastor Steven L. Anderson, please check:

Therefore we do not agree with this pastor nor the ministry involved and do not endorse it. We are locking this thread. And welcome saints to re-discuss the same topics in new threads without promoting this specific video.

this thread is locked.

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2013/6/28 15:03Profile

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