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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : John MacArthur, Strange Fire and Blasphemy of the Spirit - Michael Brown

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 Re:

I did some googling on Dr. Michael L. Brown. As far as I can discern his academic credentials are credible. Yes. He has made some goofs as pertains to Brownsville. But then John MacArthur carries credible academic credentials. And he denies the sign gifts. At least the sign gifts working in this day.

Academic credentials are good. But remember the apostles themselves were "uneducated and untrained men". Yet these men had been with Jesus Good question to ask if any servant if God. Are they with Jesus.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2013/6/22 8:17









 Re: John MacArthur, Strange Fire and Blasphemy of the Spirit - Michael Brown

oh no.

why? why? why?

of all the ever darkening news I read, that just keeps getting darker and darker, more evil, cold and fell. I think this, right here, is probably the worst thing I've read.

what is John MacArthur doing? When you have a prominent evangelical leader firing a full cannon broadside at a part of the Body in times like this....we are surely headed for some very dark times, and I pose this question...is John MacArthur REALLY doing the Work of God?....and honoring the Blood of the Lamb?

this is just the worst news IMAGINABLE.

Some one brought up Len Ravenhill....well fyi, Michael Brown sat at the feet of Len as a student AND brother AND friend...as far as Michael Brown being head theologian for the Brownsville AoG, and then president of the "Brownsville School of Revival:....did anyone know WHY Michael left that post?...because from what I read, he didn't want to be AoG ordained, and they drew a line in the sand, and said, you HAVE to be "AoG credentialed"....reasons?...I don't know.

I know this, Michael Brown has been a mentor to me from afar, and encouraged me, because he too, is a fellow Hebrew in the flesh, and when he speaks and teaches about Messiah, Crucified, Resurrected....these teaching resonate with me, they feel very familiar, and God bless Michael for having the sand to call John MacArthur out on this dreadfully injurious verbiage...it borders on ecclesiastical "suicide"....could it be, and i'm not trying to be cute or cheeky..but could it be some form of Alzheimer's on MacArthur's part?

you know brethren, personally, we've had huge breakthru's in my family, and this morning I awoke with such Joy and Shalom Peace, Grace, Wholeness and Love, the Kind only God the Holy Spirit can engender....and I would NEVER TELL any of them, about this TERRIBLE WITNESS....they will NEVER hear about this article or MacArthur's new onus, if I can help it...they need "milk" right now! not 'sour grapes' or 'bitumen'!

why doesn't MacArthur speak out against the roman "church"?...and I don't wish ANY offense against dear beloved brothers here, who were freed from that bondage, but if wants to fire fusillades of cannon fire, there's a target. Rome is cuddling up with the UN and the EU. i'm well aware elements of the AoG have cuddled up to American imperial and military aspirants...ohhhhh.

i'm just going to stuff my gullet with microwaved taquitos and try and fall back asleep, and maybe pretend this never happened...at the very least, i'll just restart the day, recognizing that God is God. Master of the Universe, He has all this nonsense well in hand, and is perfectly Able to make things right....amen.

 2013/6/22 11:02
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: John MacArthur

This is very common language for the reformed and calvinist camps, One does not need to be very well read in Luther and Calvin to relieze how often they called anyone whom differed from them theology as blasphemers,

Thankfully we no longer have the consistory condeming with persecution all whom differ with their theology and mandating us to attend their sermons weekly and mandating us to recitation by memory the pater and credo and other recited prayers and confessions.

 2013/6/22 11:16Profile









 Re: John MacArthur, Strange Fire and Blasphemy of the Spirit - Michael Brown

Quote:
If these charges are true, this means that many leaders in the charismatic movement have committed the unpardonable sin and are therefore hell-bound. If these charges are not true, Pastor MacArthur has seriously overstepped his bounds and misused the Word of God.



Could it be the other way round? The unpardonable sin is attributing to Satan that which is of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 12:31-32.

Of course if we are speaking of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the context in which we have the one single example of this has nothing to do with offering “strange fire” but rather accusing the Lord Himself of labouring in the power of Satan. Yet the Lord clearly said in His earthly ministry I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me" John 10:25

Offering strange fire was an issue of worship and not whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit or Satan were evident in the sons of Aron. Leviticus 10:1, Numbers 3:4, Number 26:61

If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? “If I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. Matthew 12:26-29

The singular relevance of the work of the Lord Jesus is that before He worked any works, the Father first bound the strong man [Satan]. Why must this be so? Because unless you first bind the strong man you cannot carry of his property [set men free].! This is the meaning of the passage above and demonstrates the unusualness of the reality of casting our demons. How can you cast out demons and not bind the one who lords it over them in the first instance? If we ourselves had witnessed this reality in the clear way in which Jesus laboured, we too would have to guard our mouths. Otherwise we would find ourselves in the place of the Pharisees, who working in the mind of Satan blasphemed the Holy Spirit and therein rejected God’s will for their lives.

The problem for John MacArthur may be simply that he hasn’t seen this working of the Holy Spirit in a convincing way. Perhaps what he has witnessed [from afar] has been to great a show, not so much to do with casting our demons but offering to God the sorceries of the flesh and the natural man, as true worship, and then pressing others to walk in them as of the Lord. If we then add, that these same men are being influenced by demonic agencies, we would simply confuse the matter. No doubt this addition, if it is proven to be the underlying motive of Mr MacArthur’s accusations, will bring in confusion. Reality however will in the end prove itself openly and Mr MacArthur will make his own case in October.

Anyway I think he has a valid point. Offering strange fire has more to do with worship and service to God than it has to do with spiritual gifts. When Jesus said to the pharisees “if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges”, the Lord is of course speaking about the disciples [fellow Jews with the Pharisees] who on this very point were amazed and excited that even the demons were subject to the name of Christ when they were initially sent out (Mark 6:7, Luke 10:17). This is long before Pentecost so we would have to ask by what power were the disciples able to caste out demons? It is of course by the power of the Spirit working in Christ Himself and by His name to those Whom He sends. It is by John at the river Jordan that this power of God is come into visibility, not by tongues of men, angels or fire, but by “a voice crying aloud in the wilderness” and the witness of the Father from heaven. Spiritual power is become Pentecost but its authority is the Father working in Christ Jesus. This is something which Mr MacArthur understands very well.

If we want to comprehend by which point Satan was again loosed to his evil we have to look no further than the supper table of the Lord. He entered in full sight of the Lord into one of His apostles and therein pressed him to do that which no man could do without his power. It is one thing to talk, as Judas no doubt did talk a great deal when conspiring to betray the Lord for money, with the chief priest and his ambassadors, it is another thing to press into it in the sight of the Lord. Or else why did Judas suddenly come to such an overwhelming regret and take his own life? The Pharisees on the other hand pressed Jesus continuously with the mind of Satan not his power, and as a result they themselves alone are said to have committed the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit because they did it in their own power. If we want to see what a pharisee and Satan look like working together after he is loosed in power, we need look no further than the trial of the Lord when a roman governor asked “do you not want me to release unto you your king?” and they cried “away with Him, we have no other king than Caesar”. We need a little wisdom brethren and less imagination.

I rather think Mr MacArthur is better informed than we believe him to be. If we by reason of his secessionist position, imagine that he is ignorant of spiritual realities then we are become his judge and in that fools.

It is almost always the case that when we want to make controversial that which is in truth a sober reality, we will set a snare for our feet and fall right into the trap ourselves.

http://blog.ichabod.eu/sorcerers/

 2013/6/22 12:21
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote-
I rather think Mr MacArthur is better informed than we believe him to be. If we by reason of his secessionist position, imagine that he is ignorant of spiritual realities then we are become his judge and in that fools
-Quote Andrew



Andrew, who has stated what you have supposed. Nobody has stated that he wasn't informed on spiritual things. The problem is that a cessationist is lacking in the fullness of the Holy Spirit in operation is his life by his own admission.

cessationist -someone who believes that certain works of the Holy Spirit have ceased
— noun

a temporary or complete stopping; discontinuance: a cessation of the Holy Spirits working

Acts 18:24-26
Ministry of Apollos
Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.


Now Andrew how can he truly be able to accurately discern on the operation of the Holy Spirit when he by his own admission has not experienced nor will except certain works of the Holy Spirit as being for our day. That which is perfect has not come yet and we still only know in part as the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Now if one thinks that he is complete in his experience but has not experienced what multitudes of others have experienced how can he truly know what is of God and what is not.

Now if you truly don't want people to end up as fools to believe that McArthur is complete in his experience and that he is well qualified to explain to us the way of the Holy Spirit more perfectly than I don't see your argument.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2013/6/22 14:35Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

There is a great little book written by John Sherrill entitled THEY SPEAK WITH OTHER TONGUES.

John Sherrill is, along with his wife Elizabeth, the co-author of many well-known Christian biographies and auto-biographies -- including THE CROSS AND THE SWITCHBLADE with David Wilkerson, GOD'S SMUGGLER with Brother Andrew and THE HIDING PLACE with Corrie ten Boom.

At the time that he wrote the book, Mr. Sherrill was a somewhat skeptical yet open-minded magazine reporter researching the Pentecostal, Charismatic and "Jesus" movements. His research was extensive. He did a great job of detailing the history of the Pentecostal movement and even notes the differences between "classical pentecostals" and "charismatics" (although I think that the definitions may have changed or become blurred over time).

The book provides some interesting accounts of the modern Pentecostal movement including historic anecdotes from Topeka, Kansas, Azusa Street and other revivals. Sherrill was also able to gather input from David Wilkerson, Catherine Marshall and even others. More importantly, it is written mostly as an autobiography by the author as he developed his own perspective from Scripture, history, the experiences of others and, finally, his own experiences.

I recommend this book. It is an easy, quick read and can provide some valuable insight into the issue from "the outside looking in." Even though the book is old (originally published in 1964 although it may have been updated), it is one of my favorite books on the subject. I do appreciate the warnings about "wild fire" or "strange fire" from men like John MacArthur or even Dave Hunt though I am convinced of the place and use of spiritual gifts today.

http://www.elizabethsherrill.com/they-speak-with-other-tongues-book-desc.html

http://www.amazon.com/They-Speak-Other-Tongues-Sherrill/dp/0800793595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371925780&sr=8-1&keywords=they+speak+with+other+tongues


_________________
Christopher

 2013/6/22 14:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now Andrew how can he truly be able to accurately discern on the operation of the Holy Spirit when he by his own admission has not experienced nor will except certain works of the Holy Spirit as being for our day. That which is perfect has not come yet and we still only know in part as the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Now if one thinks that he is complete in his experience but has not experienced what multitudes of others have experienced how can he truly know what is of God and what is not.

Now if you truly don't want people to end up as fools to believe that McArthur is complete in his experience and that he is well qualified to explain to us the way of the Holy Spirit more perfectly than I don't see your argument. rbanks




I agree that conventional wisdom would assert that one who rejects the ecstatic gifts would seem to be lacking in an ability to judge these things in those who have received them by faith. Conventional wisdom is of no use however. Apart from the possibility of not really comprehending Mr MacArthur’s deep concern in this instance, it is the new life which is the instrument of discernment for all believers. We ought not to confuse the discerning of spirits with spiritual discernment. Unless a man is actively cooperating with unclean spirits a man cannot be discerned, by a gift of the discerning of spirits, therefore such a gift is not necessary to comprehend spiritual deception. Such a man can only be comprehended by ordinary and reasonable means (Doctrines & Conduct). Although any believer could in an instant be convicted by the Holy Spirit whether to go to the right or the left, this is not the same as discernment [knowing]. True prophetic discernment is not conviction, but knowing in the spirit and speaking it with the mouth as though you did in fact understand the thing spoken off. Neither is spiritual discernment the same as rejecting something with the mind, it is a reasonable maturity to effect or add greater substance to conviction, by faith. Three ways to obey, one spirit and one life in Christ.

Similarly one who rejects something in his thinking does not necessarily lack it in his spirit. Who knows what gifts of the Holy Spirit Mr MacArthur has? I take it that Mr MacArthur will show his full meaning when the time comes and from that we will know what the substance of his presentation and call to enquiry is. Therefore to assert that because Mr MacArthur rejects the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not mean that he cannot comprehend in a renewed mind of Christ that other men offer strange fire, is to presume that his opposition is solely on the basis of rejecting the gifts of the Holy Spirit, be it tongues or any other gift. As a matter of reality I go a great deal further than Mr MacArthur. I would speak a great deal more plainly than he does and have done many times. To claim that he lacks the ability to know that “something is wrong” with certain brethren does not make him a fool (lacking wisdom) but may simply reflect the reality of affairs. Increasing numbers of brethren are becoming sorcerers and have given up their own discernment due to an insensitive conscience, and the doctrines of demons increasingly become the basis for continuing on. Difficult things to say because it makes the “sayer” seem guilty of attributing to Satan the things of the Holy Spirit if we have believed the object of concern. It is especially true if the “sayer” believes in the first instance that tongues for example is essentially demonic. The problem is that tongues can be demonic they can also be sorceric as of a man of intentional effect.

As to whether anyone has said anything about Mr MacArthur as reflecting my comments we can all read for ourselves no doubt.

 2013/6/22 16:37
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Andrew,

On another thought maybe this will be good for McArthur and others also because it could cause him to experience of the Holy Spirit in a way that he hasn't before.

This could be one of his greatest challenges, and God could enlighten him on some things lacking in his understanding and also help others who are lacking in discernment. I do believe that McArthur has a measure of the Holy Spirit and a deapth of the "Word" to be able to discern the many errors that many have fallen into.

Hopefully he want bash the true things he doesn't understand but use caution in the exercise of true spiritual discernment showing from scripture, which he has a great knowledge of, the false and deceptive spirits that too many have been so gullibly duped in the excepting.of doctrines of demons.


Blessings..from brother rbanks

 2013/6/22 17:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
On another thought maybe this will be good for McArthur and others also because it could cause him to experience of the Holy Spirit in a way that he hasn't before. rbanks



Yes that would be wonderful. I had the same thought as well. Amen.

 2013/6/22 17:36
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

one of the best sermons I saw of john MacArthur was preached at greg lauries church ,,he is basically a Pentecostal ,,,he an most of the church received him well ,and he preached to them as brethren exhorting them butafully ,,,,,,I don't no if any one has seen that sermon but it was worth watching

I big mistake that ;Pentecostals charismatics make ,,is thinking we are more spiritual that others who have not recived certain gifts ,,,,,most of us toung talker would not come close to the john weaslys ,witfields Edwards branheard who never spoke in toungs or prophesied in the fresh scenc of speaking a thus says the lord

paul did imply with a question ,that not everyone spoke in toungs or prophesied ,,,,,unless one experience those gifts it remains very hard to except especially if one is taught that they have ceased

what is evident iv noticed ,,is that many pentacostals carsamatics ,, don't except prophecies that are givern saying that the old testament prophecy was different ,and new testament prophecy means to exhort and preach the word,,,so they are partial secessionist in that scenc ,,,,I read an article of zac poonan that suggested this

and many secessionists believe god still heals and performs miracles according to his will .they just don't believe that a person welds the power to heal or perform miracles,,,,,,,,,,,,,i personly see the sound Pentecostal charismatic and the sound secessionist as being on the same spiritual ground

blessings

 2013/6/22 18:32Profile





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