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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

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"If you love me, obey me" and "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

"Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?"

I think you putting the cart before the horse.

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With that said, has the Church given up on "personal righteousness"?

What do you mean, preach it?
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Does God require men to be righteous

Just-in, that's what the gospel is about, that's what makes it such good news, the law condemned every man as guilty of transgression the law and deserving of death. Thats why Jesus came because it is impossible to fulfil the requirements of the law. Every righteous act is as filthy rags, Paul called it dung, it counts for nothing. Its gods gift of righteousness.

Like I said earlier on, its because we do not get this foundation understanding into us that we have a question such as
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i am righteous because of Christ?


You are in righteous because you are IN Christ. Just-in, stop and think about that, you are an earnest believer. That Just-in is the righteousness of God IN Christ. Not just any righteousness but Gods. When God sees us, he sees his Son, non of me, all of him, and i am excepted, unconditionally.

This is such wonderful news, no wonder the sinners flocked to him. In Christ!!!!!!

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Without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men.

Just-In, Christ's sacrifice was so final and powerful, his blood so effectual in covering sin, that HE, the God of the universe ripped the temple curtain and two. We really do not understand the love of God and what he did. Gods righteousness came to earth wrapped himself in frail humanity whilst we were still sinners.


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Is it enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", yet not exhibit any real fruit?

Is that your place to judge another mans servant? Is your understanding of righteousness and justification so complete that if someone had to stay the same for the rest of their lives after believing on the Lord Jesus, would you be all right with that?

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Should there be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Is there suppose to be a manifestation of the reality of Christ in our lives?

In any healthy relationship on earth there is growth, how much more now that we have a relationship with our Father in heaven. So yes there should be, just because of who you are living with.

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son at was at least 20 years after God had declared him righteous. These days we barely give people 2 months to 'prove' their works and faith.

Sometimes we are in a rush, and I suppose this all depends on the church that you go to, but we got to give God time with people.

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True or False: "be ye holy, for I am holy" is a suggestion?

If that doesn't make you run to Christ what will?

You see you can't tell people to be Holy if there is absolutely nothing inside them that is Holy. You see why Jesus is so wonderful, In Christ, In him I'm holy. I'm at peace, at rest in my Fathers presence. Letting him love me, for no other reason that he does. Friend it changes you, from one degree of glory to another. No condemnation, no failure, no disappointment, just his amazing love.

And you know what have to's become glorious and delightful want to's!!! Horse then cart!!!


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2013/6/20 10:19Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:
I thought Jesus said "we cannot follow Him if we do not pick up our cross".

Is this only about sanctification.

Is that a question?

Please read the context of those versus it has got nothing at all to do with sanctification.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2013/6/20 10:22Profile









 Re:

HI Zeke,

It seems that we have a disagreement as to what context is or what a pre-text is. Given that, I can see no fruit coming from further discussion. If you disagree with the post then that is your right brother. God bless you. I have no desire whatsoever for contention. Each man has to be thouroughly persuaded in what he or she believes. We have stated out opinions, and you are entitled to yours. Be blessed.

Brother Andrew, just do not know where you are coming from brother, but again, no further comment from me. My post is an exhortation to saints to pick up their cross and follow after Jesus, nothing more, nothing less. So, you have your opinion and I have mine. Be blessed brother and may the Lord continually open up His Word to both of us, and on that I am sure we can agree............bro Frank

 2013/6/20 10:49









 Re:

Zeke just a gentle question. Are you a proponent if hyper grace? Do you embrace the teaching of Joseph Prince?

I have seen in your posts that you refute the idea of a believer having any need of responsibility in a holy practical walk before Cbrist.

I gleam you think it all hingex on justification by faith with no practical fruit to show in sanctification. Bro the New Testament teaches we are to be holy as ve us holy. And that comes from a Spirit filled Salk if faith with Jesus.

Bearmaster.

 2013/6/20 10:54
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Frank

I just wanted to say so much of what you have been sharing in your recent posts is what the LORD has been placing on my heart as well. Thank you for sharing such good seeds that I know will produce fruit in my life. We do need to be mindful that time is short and we are called to take up our cross daily to follow HIM. I am learning to see what a privilege that is to be able to do by HIS strength, daily walking with HIM, knowing HIM. This world would attempt to draw us away, to lures into a place of comfort so that we become lazy and unwilling to be about HIS KINGDOM but if we keep our eyes focused on HIM then HE will carry us through.


I have been much blessed brother...

God bless
mj

 2013/6/20 11:01Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I thought Jesus said "we cannot follow Him if we do not pick up our cross".

Matthew 16:24
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

He also said this: Matthew 10:38
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Is this only about sanctification. just-in



The Lord Jesus has said plainly to everyone who believes in Him that in order to be worthy of Him as Lord & King they must take up their cross daily. This however is not an issue of life in the sense of believing in Him as Redeemer and Saviour. The issue of sanctification is settled by Christ Himself in the first instance. “By His [the Father’s] doing you are in Christ Jesus Who became unto us both the wisdom of God, righteousness, sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30). This finished work of the Lord Jesus, in His own body on the cross unto death and by resurrection of His body from the dead, is the basis of believing into Christ by a power given by the Father. This power is a gift of faith to believe, without which no one could believe. It is therefore by grace, undeserved, unmerited yet given to the one who asks in Christ name. It is the evidence of the Father’s love towards us and it makes us the children of God. As it is written. “He [Christ] came unto His own and they knew Him not. Yet to as many as believed in Him to them He gave the power to become the children of God”.

The basis and the only basis for taking up ones cross as a disciple [one who follows] is on the basis of first becoming God’s children through Christ by believing. To be a disciple is more than simply believing, it is believing and obedience, comprehending that if we serve Christ in the strength of His life, freely given we will be serving Him as Lord and King to a fruitful outcome. The kingdom is the outworking of this obedience, just as eternity is the outworking of faith to believe. Unless we are able to make a distinction in our own consciences and in the renewing of our minds to comprehend that all that which was necessary for eternal life was accomplished and finished in Christ’s own physical body, having Himself learned obedience through His sufferings, we are in danger of the evil pride of life becoming our motivation in service. The most visible of which suffering is the Cross itself unto death. In other respects we could speak of the Lord being rejected and despised yet reviling no one, but patiently enduring even to the point of fulfilling the law and the prophets.

To speak about sanctification therefore we have to firstly speak about the Lord Himself, His obedience and suffering, even to the point of comprehending that “He Who knew no sin, became sin” for our sakes. “Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world”, is its meaning. Only then can we speak about following the Lord as a disciple. Otherwise we are in danger of following, to an end of making ourselves right before the Father and in that mistaken effort we will find many disappointments as we constantly fail to see the evidence of God working in and through our lives for the sake of Christ Himself and those who would believe.

Taking up our cross is not an issue of eternal life. It is an issue of discipleship and obedience, having already done the works of the Father by believing in the Father and the One Whom He sent, even Christ. In that obedience we have in all sufficiency pleased the Father. No one can be worthy of the Lord’s death otherwise we are saying that there is a man somewhere who is without sin. To be reckoned worthy of the Lord Himself speaks of being worthy through obedience in all things, concerning the risen, ascended and soon to come again, Lord of lords and King of kings.

The cross therefore for those who do believe has to do with dealing with the natural man so that he does not walk in his own understanding but in the [same] mind which was in Christ.


Quote:
Brother Andrew, just do not know where you are coming from brother, but again, no further comment from me. My post is an exhortation to saints to pick up their cross and follow after Jesus, nothing more, nothing less. So, you have your opinion and I have mine. Be blessed brother and may the Lord continually open up His Word to both of us, and on that I am sure we can agree............bro Frank




Yes I do agree with your prayer Frank. As for explaining myself I have no liberty to enter into explanations.

 2013/6/20 11:06
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:
Are you a proponent if hyper grace

What is hyper Grace?
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Do you embrace the teaching of Joseph Prince?

Absolutely!!!

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I have seen in your posts that you refute the idea of a believer having any need of responsibility in a holy practical walk before Cbrist.

Please read the post From armkelly above, its brilliant, he explains it allot better than I have time or the inclination to.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2013/6/20 11:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:
that's what makes it such good news, the law condemned every man as guilty of transgression the law and deserving of death. Thats why Jesus came because it is impossible to fulfil the requirements of the law. Every righteous act is as filthy rags, Paul called it dung, it counts for nothing. Its gods gift of righteousness.



yes, this is basic and I understand that. But let me ask you a question. Does God want us to experience righteousness in our hearts as a work of the Holy Spirit?

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You are righteous because you are IN Christ.



Yes, I understand justification. Again, does Jesus Christ want righteousness to be experiential in the life of the Believer?

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That Just-in is the righteousness of God IN Christ. Not just any righteousness but God's. When God sees us, he sees his Son, non of me, all of him, and i am accepted, unconditionally.



Can you show me that in scripture. I am not talking about justification. Especially, the unconditional part, because being truly born-again requires a condition, that we die to everything. We must be willing to die in order that we can be raised in newness of life. No life without death.

Are we just to confess we are "righteous in Christ" and live lives of quiet desperation or is there freedom and progressive deliverance for the Christian? Are we to go from glory to glory and faith to faith and mature, experiencing greater and greater holiness and righteousness of Christ in our lives?

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Just-In, Christ's sacrifice was so final and powerful, his blood so effectual in covering sin, that HE, the God of the universe ripped the temple curtain and two. We really do not understand the love of God and what he did. Gods righteousness came to earth wrapped himself in frail humanity whilst we were still sinners.



Again, I understand salvation and justification. What do you make of the walk of sanctification and is it necessary and required by God in the Believer's life? Does God require our participation in anything?

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Is that your place to judge another mans servant? Is your understanding of righteousness and justification so complete that if someone had to stay the same for the rest of their lives after believing on the Lord Jesus, would you be all right with that?



Let's bring some balance to this. Jesus is the one that told us how to judge a tree. And He said, we judge (discern) by the fruit it produces. Jesus was not giving us license to judge a man's eternal destination. I think you are thinking that we are judging a person's eternal destination. You judge everyday, Zeke. You judge who you hang around and who your kids hang around. We are even told not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness so you necessarily have to judge what is darkness or not in order to observe that commandment.

The rest of that balance is judging yourself.

1Co_11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Quote:
In any healthy relationship on earth there is growth, how much more now that we have a relationship with our Father in heaven. So yes there should be, just because of who you are living with.



Ok, now we're getting some place. Thank you. But, what is required to actively "live with God"?

Quote:
When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son at was at least 20 years after God had declared him righteous. These days we barely give people 2 months to 'prove' their works and faith.



Don't know what people you are talking about.

And speaking of justification:
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

You do know that when someone is born-again it is not just a mental ascent to believing in the existence of God. God knows if he/she is really placing themselves on the sacrificial altar as Abraham did Isaac, don't you? The first work of faith is to come and die with Jesus so that we may live with Him.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

And like Abraham, we will be declared righteous later...

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see, this seems contradictory but Paul is speaking of legal works that precede salvation and those works cannot be used for a basis of our salvation.

James, on the other hand is thinking of works that are produced by being "in Christ", an outworking of real faith and the presence of the indwelling Christ.

Your faith will make you willing to offer yourself on the altar of sacrifice (Romans 12:1) each day, just like Abraham's faith made him willing to offer his son, Isaac. If you are not willing to offer yourself up for sacrifice to God, then you may not have true faith and this is what it means to examine ourselves.

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"be ye holy, for I am holy" is a suggestion?



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If that doesn't make you run to Christ what will?



Well, the flesh does not want to be holy and it is still with us.

Without Him we can do nothing.

Having His Spirit and keeping ourselves in the love of God will keep us coming to Him. We must resist many things, unbelief and the root of bitterness to name a couple.

Zeke, how do you understand the following verses?

1Jn_2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 2013/6/20 11:40









 Re:

Sister MJ writes ........

"I just wanted to say so much of what you have been sharing in your recent posts is what the LORD has been placing on my heart as well. Thank you for sharing such good seeds that I know will produce fruit in my life. We do need to be mindful that time is short and we are called to take up our cross daily to follow HIM. I am learning to see what a privilege that is to be able to do by HIS strength, daily walking with HIM, knowing HIM. This world would attempt to draw us away, to lures into a place of comfort so that we become lazy and unwilling to be about HIS KINGDOM but if we keep our eyes focused on HIM then HE will carry us through."

Thank you so much sister for the light that is in your eye and the love that pours forth from your own posts, they are such an ancouragement to me. I am simply sharing from what the Lord is showing me and have no desire whatsoever to debate. Even having this desire not to debate is a work of the Lord in my life as I seek after a deeper walk with the Lord. I just want to press into Him, draw close to Him. There is such beauty there. Now, the enemy tries to draw us away from this place, but even after failing this very week with a dear brother, we reconciled quickly and beauty flowed from both of us, humbling ourselves in love for Jesus and for one another and asking forgiveness of each other, it is such a beautiful thing...........bro Frank

 2013/6/20 11:47
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Thank you brother Frank for this discussion,

I believe that the only way a person can deny himself and take up the cross to follow Jesus is by having the experience of resting in the finish work of Christ that He accomplished by the cross.

The resting in the finished work of Christ must come first before we can truly take up the cross for ministry. I must understand that it is all by Grace through faith. All of salvation is by grace through faith and not by any work of achievement of myself but only through Christ finished work that I must rest in by faith.

How can we truly take up the cross which means death to ourselves unless we are truly resting in His finished work upon the cross for us! I can take up the cross because I am dead and my life is hid with Christ in God! We must experience the finished work of salvation before we can take up the cross for ministry. The taking up of the cross is the work of ministry resulting from the work of salvation all accomplished by God in us and through us to His glory.

I appreciate you brother Frank and any comment that you think might would help me in my understanding in this post would be appreciated. Thanks!

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2013/6/20 11:54Profile





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