| Re: |
"The church in America is going to suffer so terribly and we laugh now but they will come after us.
They will come after our children.They will close the net around us while we are while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad, while we are arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear. You will be isolated from society as is already happened.
Anyone who tries to run for office who actually believes the Bible will be considered a lunatic until finally we are silenced.We will be called things that we are not and persecuted not for being followers of Christ but for being radical fundamentalists who do not know the true way of Christ which of course is love and tolerance.
Youll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history
Theyve already come after your children and for most of you, they got them.
They got them through the public schools and indoctrination in the university and you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. Its because you fed them right into the devils mouth. So little by little the net is closing around and then its not little by little.
Look how fast things are going downhill in just a matter of weeks, but at the same time, know this, persecution has always been for evil but God always means it for good and is it not better to suffer in this life to have an extra weight of glory in heaven.
You must settle this in your mind, this is the one thing I want to say over and over:
Do not believe...down through history, you have a wrong idea of martyrdom and persecution
You think that these men were persecuted and martyred for their sincere faith in Jesus Christ.
That was the real reason but no one heard that publiclyThey were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded, stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society.
Your suffering will not be noble,so your mind must be filled with the Word of God when all people persecute you and turn on you and if the spirit of God and common grace pulls back
and you see even your children and your grandchildren tossing in the lot that you should die.
This is no game.You want revival and awakening. but know this,for the most part great awakenings have come only preceding great national catastrophes of the persecution of the church.I believe God is bringing a great awakening, but I believe he is raising up young men who are strong in trust in the providence of God to be able to wade through the hell thats going to break loose on us. And it will be on us before we even recognize it unless, unless in Gods providence, He is not done, He is not done. And note, this is not silly talk, apart from great awakening, these things are going to come upon you. Be ready to lose your homes, your cars, everything." - Paul Washer
| 2013/6/2 23:07||Profile|
| Re: |
I stayed out (except for one post in the initial thread) of the discussion over several threads on the issue of corporal punishment because I can see valid points on both sides.
First, it must be understood that all children are not the same and all children do not need the same kind of punishment do thy receive it the same way. I have 9 children. I have some children who have never needed a spanking to be corrected. One would start crying if I just looked at the child harshly because of some wrong the child had committed. Spanking for those children was totally unnecessary.
I have others who could not be corrected without a spanking. Sometimes rather harsh punishment was necessary because of the rebelliousness in their heart. I will say, the spanking did not really help the heart. Although it changed the behavior, inwardly the rebelliousness remained and became bitterness.
Does this mean that the Bible is wrong? It means that we follow a new law. We no longer follow the law, but we are to be led by the Spirit. We follow the new "law of the Spirit" (Rom 8) and we should be led by the Spirit in this matter as in ALL other matters. God created these children, He knows their heart and He knows the form of discipline that each child needs to be guided in the right path. We should submit to prayer what God the Father would have us do to discipline each child.
Note also that the key word is discipline, not spanking. Discipline involves more than spanking; it means to create disciples.
Another great concern that I have is the complete lack of understanding on this forum of what is called the "child protection system" in the US. Contrary to what has been said, there is almost a zero tolerance for physical punishment. While it is true that most state laws SAY that corporal punishment is not in itself abuse, this is not what is seen in practice. If any bruises are seen on a child, they are most likely going to remove the child from the home first and you will be answering questions before a judge, who likely has NO tolerance for Christians or spankings and will not care about your religious beliefs. You will not get your child back until you go through their hoops, which includes attending parenting classes, therapy, etc. If the doctor sees a bruise, you better have an explanation, or the same thing will happen.
How do I know this? Two ways: I have been there. I was accused falsely, trumped up because I refused to bow to the mighty doctors and when social workers saw we had 9 kids, home schooled, they went crazy (my lawyer's words) and said there must be something going on in this family. All these things were said to us in court and by everyone who knows of the system. We were later told that the worst thing we said was that we were Christians, because there is an intense prejudice in these courtrooms for Christians, because they are perceived as abusers. I saw many other parents stuck in court for ridiculous things as well. While I did not get into court on the issue of spanking, it was immediately stressed on us not to use corporal punishment.
Second, while I was in law school I studied this a lot. The practical side of the system does not follow the written law. Social workers have almost unbridled authority to remove children for anything THEY consider to be abuse. They do not have to do much to justify the removal, and they sometimes lie by saying that they have tried other less drastic means before removing the child. (That is what the law requires them to do in Florida, but they did not do it in my case.) I am sure that you all have heard of ridiculous reasons for removing children. Whatever you have heard on the news is only the tip of the iceberg. Some social workers are reasonable, some are lax, and some are radical. It all depends on who you get knocking at your door. God forbid you are poor and a social worker comes knocking, because you will be considered to be negletful for not having enough food, etc. in the home. If they are part of child protective services, they will not offer to help you, they will simply take your kids away and they will see you in court. You won't get your kids back until you can rectify your poverty, keep a steady job, but still somehow attend court hearings sometimes several times a week, at least several times a month, attend therapy, etc. It is a very sad situation. It is a mission field here in our own nation.
Once you get to court, the social worker is assumed to be correct by the judge, and you have to prove her/him wrong in court. No one says this outright, but it is the practical truth.
Please be aware of this. I would hate to see anyone's kids removed and placed in foster care because they assume the laws protect them and after all, "I am not doing anything wrong." This kind of mentality is what got me and my husband in trouble. Do not risk the welfare of your children over your principles on spanking, if it comes to that.
Said in love and concern and I hope it is received in that way.
| 2013/6/3 1:22||Profile|
Monroe, LA - USA
| Re: |
Do not risk the welfare of your children over your principles on spanking, if it comes to that. - romanchog
Roman, this is a sad piece of conclusive advice to the dilemma that you have described. It reminds me of another group of people who said:
Num 14:3 And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
When we give up ANY Biblical principles so as not to "risk" the welfare of our children ... we are basically saying that we don't trust the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ... the omnipotent Creator of the universe.
In the above cited case, ONLY TWO men out of the whole generation acted on FAITH in Biblical principles, and went to the promises of God.
What if Daniel had said: "Do not risk the welfare of your life over your principles of eating"?
What if Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had said: "Do not risk the welfare of your life over your principles of bowing"?
What if Esther ... what if David ... what if Jeremiah ...
the list goes on.
We either stand in faith or join the multitudes of cowards who according to Rev. 21:8 cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.
| 2013/6/3 8:14||Profile|
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
| 2013/6/3 8:22||Profile|
| Re: |
Roman, thanks for an excellent post!!
I saw the heart of what you were saying as well as the many posts of Andrew.
I was just wondering -is Proverbs and the old testament the only books in the bible that some on here read concerning discipline of children.
Here is something to think about in the Pulpit Commentary:
Chasten thy son while there is hope; or. seeing that there is hope. Being still young and impressionable, and not confirmed in bad habits, he may be reformed by judicious chastisement. The same expression occurs in Job_11:18 Jer_31:16. "For so he shall be well hoped of" (euelpiv ), Septuagint. (comp. Pro_23:13) And let not thy soul spare for his crying. "It is better," says a German apothegm, "that the child weep than the father." But the rendering of the Authorized Version is not well established, and this second clause is intended to inculcate moderation in punishment. Vulgate, Ad interfectionem autem ejus ne ponas animam tuam; Revised Version. Set not thine heart on his destruction. Chastise him duty and sufficiently, but not so heavily as to occasion his death, which a father had no right to do.
The Law enjoined the parents who had an incorrigibly bad son to bring him before the judge or the eiders, who alone had the power of life and death, and might in certain cases order the offender to be stoned. (Deu_21:18, etc.)
Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
Ye fathers, do not irritate your children, lest they be disheartened. (Eph_6:4) Ereqizw ("irritate" or "provoke") St. Paul uses once besides, (2Co_9:2) in a good sense. It implies a use of parental authority which, by continual exactions and complaints, teaches the child to look on the father as his enemy rather than his friend. The synonymous parorgizw ofw (Eph_6:4, found here in many copies, is, more definitely "to rouse to anger." Aqume) (only here in the New Testament) means "to lose heart," to have the confidence and high spirit of youth broken; "fractus animus pestis juventutis" (Bengel). In place of this treatment, "the discipline and admonition of the Lord" are recommended in Eph_6:4.
The duties of fathers.
"Fathers, provoke not your children, lest they be discouraged.
I THE DUTY OR PARENTS. It is here exhibited on its negative side. They are not to abuse their authority over their children by too great severity either in words or deeds. Some parents spoil their children by indulgence; others, by unwise severities. Bitter words are used, unreasonable commands are given, immoderate correction is administered. Parents are to behave lovingly to their children, even while maintaining their just authority over them.
II THE DANGER OF NEEDLESS HARSHNESS. "Lest they be discouraged." They may lose heart; their spirit may be broken; they may become morose, sullen, and reckless. Thus they may be turned aside from the service of God, lose the capacity to do great things, become pusillanimous, and eventually become a sad disappointment to their parents. T. C.
Christianity recommended moderation in punishment. (see Eph_6:4 Col_3:21) Septuagint, "Be not excited in the mind to despiteful treatment (eiv ubrin );" i.e. be not led away by passion to unseemly acts or words, but reprove with gentleness, while you are firm and uncompromising in denouncing evil. This is much the same advice as that given by the apostle in the passages just cited.
Family Bible Notes
Colossians 3:21Provoke not your children; by unkindly and improperly finding fault with them, being difficult to please, or failing to commend and encourage them when they do well. Lest they be discouraged; despair of being able to please you, and so become broken in spirit and reckless in regard to your wishes. A most important admonition to all parents who would retain their influence over their children.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath - Avoid all severity; this will hurt your own souls, and do them no good; on the contrary, if punished with severity or cruelty, they will be only hardened and made desperate in their sins. Cruel parents generally have bad children. He who corrects his children according to God and reason will feel every blow on his own heart more sensibly than his child feels it on his body. Parents are called to correct; not to punish, their children. Those who punish them do it from a principle of revenge; those who correct them do it from a principle of affectionate concern.
Bring them up, etc - Εκτρεφετε αυτα εν παιδειακαι νουθεσια Κυριου literally, Nourish them in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. The mind is to be nourished with wholesome discipline and instruction, as the body is with proper food. Παιδεια , discipline, may refer to all that knowledge which is proper for children, including elementary principles and rules for behavior, etc. Νουθεσια , instruction, may imply whatever is necessary to form the mind; to touch, regulate, and purify the passions; and necessarily includes the whole of religion. Both these should be administered in the Lord - according to his will and word, and in reference to his eternal glory. All the important lessons and doctrines being derived from his revelation, therefore they are called the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
If you will notice in the new testament the teaching concerning children is more concerned with not provoking them to wrath but to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. It talks more to the Father about gentleness to children and encouraging children.
Maybe the Lord was trying to get the Father's attention concerning the abuse of reading to much into the wisdom of Solomon.
Maybe we need to get out from under the Law and into the new covenant. Lets not think that just because we are so much bigger and stronger that we must beat them into submission. They need our love and we need their love. They need our heart and we need their heart. We need to do everything that we can to stay connected to our children in a relationship to influence them for the Lord Jesus Christ.
We may be able to force our children after much beating to comply to some things, but if we have lost their love and respect for us then we have failed to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Blessings to all!
| 2013/6/3 11:51||Profile|
Monroe, LA - USA
| Re: |
rbanks, please look at Adam Clarke's commentary on this verse:
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son - That is, if he hated him, he could not do him a greater disservice than not to correct him when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it. We have met with this subject already, and it is a favourite with Solomon. See Psa_34:10 (note) and Psa_37:3 (note).
The Rev. Mr. Holden makes some sensible observations on this passage: By the neglect of early correction the desires (passions) obtain ascendancy; the temper becomes irascible, peevish, querulous. Pride is nourished, humility destroyed, and by the habit of indulgence the mind is incapacitated to bear with firmness and equanimity the cares and sorrows, the checks and disappointments, which flesh is heir to.
The issue that seems to be coming back over and over in this discussion is the well known fact that mis-use of the rod is bad.
The main concern of the discussion is the fact that the proper use of the rod is being equated to child abuse and SHOULD NOT be. As Clarke points out, there are times in the lives of some children "when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it". To withhold physical pain inflicted from an instrument is a damaging and hateful act that many cowardly parents are putting their children through because of our society's swing in the direction of chaos.
| 2013/6/3 13:41||Profile|
| Re: |
The main concern of the discussion is the fact that the proper use of the rod is being equated to child abuse and SHOULD NOT be. As Clarke points out, there are times in the lives of some children "when his obstinacy or disobedience requires it". To withhold physical pain inflicted from an instrument is a damaging and hateful act that many cowardly parents are putting their children through because of our society's swing in the direction of chaos. lordoitagain
I think you and I have been posting in parallel universes.
| 2013/6/3 16:28|
| Re: |
///We may be able to force our children after much beating to comply to some things, but if we have lost their love and respect for us then we have failed to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.///
Who is advocating much beating ??
Not even one post is advocating much beating! To suggest so, is a LIE! a false accusation toward Gods Children.
Do you believe Paul Washer Beats his children ??
Do you believe Keith Daniels Beats his children ??
Do you believe Denny Kenaston used to beat his children ??
If not, than do not try to confuse what we are discussing with 'much beating'!
And if you do believe that they are promoting beating children, than you need to take that up with SI ministries for promoting their material!
| 2013/6/3 21:53||Profile|
| Re: imperative necessity that children find discipline, for it is the mark of love.|
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture ("Paideia") and admonition of the Lord.
RE: RB wrote/// If you will notice in the new testament the teaching concerning children is more concerned with not provoking them to wrath but to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. It talks more to the Father about gentleness to children and encouraging children.///
the word nurture in EPH 6:4 as cited is actually the greek word : "Paideia" which is the same greek word as chastening and chastisement found in Hebrews 12
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening ( "Paideia" )of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
If ye endure chastening,( "Paideia" ) God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth ,( "Paideia" )not? ,8 But if ye be without chastisement ,( "Paideia" ), whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons
Now no chastening ( "Paideia" )for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby
the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body
whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing passions. instruction which aims at increasing virtue
chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment)
Your attempt of trying to divide Gods word on child training is without fondation.
Here is what Ray Stedman another preacher that is presented on SI has to say concerning this exact subject.
It has been pointed out that this word translated Fathers could well be translated Parents because it includes both the father and the mother. It is also true that the emphasis is laid largely upon the father, for it is his responsibility as to what the children become. That is sobering, is it not, fathers? But it is true. Mothers may enforce policy but it is the father's task to set it, and to see that his children are raised properly. There is nothing that is more dishonoring to the spirit of Christianity than the attitude adopted by many fathers: "It is my job to make the living; her job is to raise the children." Not in the Word of God! In the Bible, the ultimate responsibility for what a home becomes is the father's. So the word is addressed to fathers: "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."
That is the way a father subjects himself to his children -- by deliberately avoiding the things which make a child rebel. "Proverbsoke them not to anger." The word for anger here is not the common word which describes irritation or temporary upset, for obviously in any home even proper discipline can sometimes make a child angry. Children are not mature, they do not always react as they ought, and even necessary discipline will make a child angry. This word is not saying anything against that. The word used here means "anger which results in a rebellion." It is the word from which we get our English word paroxysm. "Fathers, do not provoke your children to the place where they completely lose control and break out against authority." That is the word to the parents. What causes this?
There are two things which cause rebellion in children, two things which provoke a child ultimately to rebel against his parents: Indulgence and harshness. These two things are the negative of the two things he instructs the father to do: "Bring them up in the discipline and the instruction (or the exhortation) of the Lord." The opposites of these are indulgence and harshness. Those are the things which provoke a child to wrath.
During the last century the father was often a tyrant in his family. Children had to toe the mark and often had very little contact with their parents in a loving relationship. Consequently there was a breaking out against this. In our day it is the other way around. We have swung to the extreme of indulgence. We give our children everything and let them have their own way, let them raise themselves.
But notice that the word says, "Fathers...bring your children up." Do not let them bring you up. Once, in a church in which I was speaking, I saw that the subject of the young people's meeting in the evening was "What's Wrong With Our Parents?" That indicated the difficulty those children were having in raising their parents. But the word is not, "Children, bring up your parents," but, "Parents, bring up your children," and do so by avoiding harshness and indulgence, for either one will produce the same results -- rebellion and an outbreak of violence.
Lack of discipline will make a child insecure, miserable, and self-centered. That is what we call "a spoiled child" -- one who grows up to expect to have his way in everything and who rides rough-shod over the feelings of everyone else. This is created, in our day, by a spirit of indulgence on the part of parents who allow their children to make decisions which no child is capable of making. Parents must learn that they need to make decisions for their child for quite a while in his life, and only gradually help him to learn to make those decisions as he is able to do so. In the early years of childhood parents must make almost all the decisions. One of the terribly tragic things about life today is the degree to which many parents let children make decisions they are totally incapable of making.
I was in a home not long ago with a Christian father and his little three-year-old daughter. The little girl was watching the television set. She had turned on a murder mystery, or something similarly unsavory. The father saw what she was watching and, whether it was because I was there or not, something made him feel that this was an improper diet for his child. He stood at the set, and said to her, "Now, dear, you don't want to watch this, do you?" She nodded her head, "Sure!" He said, "But I don't think this is good for you. Don't you think you'd better turn it off?" "No." "Well," he said, "you ought to turn it off. This is not the kind of thing you should watch." But she shook her head again indicating she wanted to watch it. He stood there for three or four minutes, pleading with her, and, since she would not give her consent, he finally let her watch the program.
A three-year-old child is totally incapable of making that kind of moral decision. Though it need not have been made with harshness, the decision should have been made with firmness that the child was not to watch that program. It was no wonder that I observed that the child was a bundle of frustrations, striking out against everyone, for she had no security. A lack of proper discipline, more than anything else, will create insecurity in a child. The child without discipline feels unwanted and terribly unhappy. The limits which parents set for their children are like walls. I know that walls can sometimes be prisons, frustrating us, but that is usually the extreme. Walls are much more frequently beneficial to us, and we often long for them because they are symbols of safety. Who does not feel more secure at home at night because of the walls which are there. Disciplinary limits are like that to a child.
Some time ago, the Saturday Evening Post had a story of a stepfather who was trying to win the acceptance and approval of his new stepson by indulging him, buying him everything he wanted. But he was getting nowhere. Finally, they went out on a hike together and came to a place where a waterfall came down over a cliff and spread out in a big pool at its foot. Suddenly the father noticed the son's blue cap floating in the middle of the pool. Without hesitation he dived in and tried to find the boy. He made several dives, and at last, unavailing, he flung himself exhausted on the bank. Just then he heard a noise and there was the boy standing behind a tree. He said to him, "Did you throw your cap in the pool?" The boy said, "Yes, I did." The father said, "What did you do that for?" The boy answered, "I wanted to see what would happen." The stepfather said, "Well, you're going to find out right now," and he spanked him as few boys have ever been spanked. On the way home in the car, he suddenly found hot little fingers gripping his hand, and choked voice saying,
(((("I'm sorry, I'm awful sorry, but I didn't know whether you really liked me, because you never spanked me like the other children's fathers do."))))
It is an imperative necessity that children find discipline, for it is the mark of love. As the apostle tells us in Hebrews no father ever had a son but that he chastened him because he loved him. God's chastening is that to us, a sign of love. It is the same to a child./
you can read the entire excelant artical at: http://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/ephesians/parents-and-children
| 2013/6/4 1:36||Profile|
| Re: Late Entry|
Who is advocating much beating ??
Not even one post is advocating much beating! To suggest so, is a LIE! a false accusation toward Gods Children. proudpapa
"I want to say this also: We use this at our house. We use it often at our house. It gets used more on the younger ones than the older ones. But we use it often at our house, and my children love me." "
The Godly Home" a video preaching session by a brother speaking about his own home.
The word i presume you really object to is the word beating. That objection is founded on a belief that striking your children with a "switch", which in translation means a small branch or sapling taken from a tree, made of wood and does not mean a tree made of say duck feathers or say cotton wool
amounts to the same in meaning as the word "beating" used in the quotation by Mr Banks. Just a normal tree. You know brother the type which kills you if you drive your car into it at 70 miles per hour. Just one part thereof just one little part. The smallest of its branches even its outer parts yea a "switch".
Does that help to clarify it brother or is this too just a game of words.
I would post some of Mr Pearls expressions about what "much" means but I have a feeling that the tomahawk throwing gentleman in question is watching. I truly hope so. He can throw one of his tomahawks at me. Not on this site though. I have one of my own and intend to use it.
| 2013/6/4 2:55|