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 Late Entry

Quote:
Andrew,
I cannot understand,how a person of your studying...reading,..to gain knowledge...(I can tell that by your writings) cannot understand this ,...one of the most plain-spoken subjects / truths of the Word.And to throw His
WAY / TRUTH / COUNSEL / WORDS to the ground,and KEEP your
words,...Do you know the cost in that ?...Elevating your word above
His Word / Counsel ?

2:Tim.3:16 ,.."ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable
for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness,.."...

I ask you again,' Have you really considered the cost to ANYONE who
decides to throw out some of the Words in the Bible ?'
Well ! ..I know this is hard but,.....We lose something of great value,...our credibility.

1Sam.3:19,..( Samual,.. great and humbled man unto God,)"And Samual grew,and The Lord was with him,and he did let none of His Words fall to the ground."

Mt.18:3,..(Jesus speaking), "Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,
and become as little children,ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

A 'little' child is humble / bendable :

* real example of a true child of God: Mt.5:3-12,...'the beatitudes'

* Jn.3:12,...' But as many as recieve Him,to them gave He power
TO BECOME the CHILDREN of God.( He gives us Grace : "The Devine
enfflence upon our heart and it 's reflection in the Life.)Power..working through the Holy Spirit,...drawing us to His will.

* Lk.12:47-48,..' And that servant,..(which we really are a child,servant, (serveing the Lord) son's,etc,..who knows the will of the Father )...who knew his Lord's will and doeth it not,prepareth not himself,neither did His will,"shall be beaten "...? with many stripes."
Question: you mean,The Father would acually BEAT us?...where there are marks on our skin ?

Andrew,What these brethren patiently and lovingly were trying to help you to see,...Why would you scoff at ? And the Denny Kenaston artical,that Proud Papa brought forth,.....I believe was as good and Godly way,as I have ever heard,...you scoffed at.
I do believe this man studied the Words of this Godly instruction on
raising Godly children,and The Spirit of God taught this man the most perfect way,...not abuse but through patience,love,much work care and time,..to bring up his children in the way that they should go,..
And yet you scoofed at it.To me there is something to be feared here.,...because when we scoff at something The Lord has taught,..according to His Word and Spirit,..Then really ,..aren't we really scoofing at The Lord' work ?

And there is another important factor here,...children need not only the
guidance,correction, trained,switched when needed,but to learn the joy of work. Which is taboo,,,a crime, for them to labor these days.

As for 'the times that we live in'..?"The Lord is the same yesterday,today
and forever,...He changes not.His Word shall never pass away.

It is most unfortunate if a child does not have more than a near nothing to do,...where they can be tired when night comes,..and need their rest, and not be a late sleeper In the day as some,...getting into things,at night like the gangs etc...not just leting their children go to waste....having loving,patience,parents that care...that take the time,care and hard work,to raise,.teach,..correct,.with the rod when it is neccasary,....according to the Word.

And too,you mentioned the hand vs the switch,..
Did you not realize,..Hitting the child with the hand,jar's the child,it could
Be so light,as to do nothing,or hitting them with the hand could be so hard
That it could break their bones.where a little keen switch could apply topical
switch marks,and the hurt that is needed,and not damage them deep .
They will learn to fear the....ever so small keen switch,at an early age.

And finally,

Eph.5:1,..(Paul teaching)..'Be ye followers of God,as dear children.'
* who is God ?But He who speaketh,He is the Spirit / Word
...also the inspired Word because it comes from Him.

It is with great care,that I write this to you,...as well as I know all the other
encouragements to you were.
Lovingly always,
elizabeth




Well that was somewhat of a late entry.

Sorry I missed the encouragements. But I see the clean up job. Still this won't go away you have been warned.

 2013/6/2 14:22
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Late Entry

////Still this won't go away you have been warned.////

could you please articulate clearly what you are implying by this seemingly threatning statement.

 2013/6/2 15:38Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3388
East TN (for now)

 Re: proudpapa

Quote:
proudpapa wrote:
///They seem to have a vested interest in beating and bruising toddlers and children.///

why must we speak evil like this about believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life ?



I’ve been at work all day but forgive me I didn’t feel that I was speaking evil of anyone, I’m sorry you misconstrued what I was saying. Let’s go about this logically...

1. Are you or are you not defending that Christians have a Biblical right to beat/bruise their toddlers and children?

2. Are you or are you not defending the right that if Christians do in fact beat their toddler/children with the rod and bruises are left behind that Biblically this is acceptable?

If you said yes to 1, 2 or then please provide how was I speaking evil about "believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life??" Thank you.


_________________
Lisa

 2013/6/2 17:25Profile









 Re: Late Entry

Quote:
Could you please articulate clearly what you are implying by this seemingly threatening statement.



Yes of course brother I can. The single most difficult problem we have as believers with regards to our children may seem to us as if it is their conduct from the outset which matters. And whilst this is a concern, obviously, it is just one concern which faces us. The other concern is how we express what we believe regarding the issue of disciplining our children, and how that will be used against us in the future. What we publish, what we put into writing and of course what we do ourselves. It is no good me pretending that I don't already understand that when we openly state that we set about to break the will of our children by using our children's own involuntary inclinations as a means, (called psychological entrapment), nor that this does not already carry with it a risk. So the warning is a simple one, and I thought I had already expressed it clearly, we need to be wise in what we say and do.

What I didn't realise until this last few days was just how even a believer's concerns would be viewed as a threat and seen as a throwing the word of God to the ground. This problem does not exist in England, save for on a very small scale, but it may be a huge issue in the USA. I am learning all the time, mostly because I say things which are a provocation and from that I can extrapolate an understanding of the issues involved. Its not pleasant and I am not heartless. I could explain this in some detail but I can see that as long as some believers insists that God Himself requires them to break their children and then go on to provide examples which include acknowledging that the child itself cannot help but act in a certain way, yet we nevertheless use that against them, we are going to have problems in the end. These things attend to the detail of the way legislation is framed and as most of the new child protection legislation is based on Social Policy and Health Policy advisement (Psychological & Physical) along side existing legal frameworks, the outcome is inevitable. Its a guaranteed clash in the end.

I spoke with my wife Helen this evening about this subject and she reminded me that when our children were little I actually took the complete opposite position with them. She tells me that I continuously taught them to recognise injustice. She then reminded me of my son James who was treated badly by a teacher at private school and how he dealt with it. Similarly how my daughter Sarah would not be part of the "in crowd" because she recognised the injustice of excluding the other children. She was hated for this and for the first time in her life she experienced the cost of preferring the least of the children in favour of the greatest. I know that this may seem irrelevant but it is how I am led of the Lord and how I have taught my children to live. The irrelevance may simply be in a seeming connection between my use of the term injustice and the issue of using a switch to discipline children.

However, the connection is not even the switch in reality, it is the nature of the world we live in and whether we desire to exercise wisdom or not. Again despite what has been said, especially the post by Elizabeth, which is more clear than any other post in condemning my position, the issue may in the end come down to whether we really are able to recognise the basis for future problems of persecution. For me personally the problem is even worse than this because I could't care less about persecution I know how to stand and I know how to be hidden and when to spring into the open. The problem for me will come when I am myself faced with the situation in which I either support or stand against a believer who has wilfully set about to break their children and have in the end done them great harm, so that this harm can be seen measured and comprehended in actions of self harm and the harm of others. We can play semantics all day. But in the end I am completely against the idea of breaking children. I simply cannot see it scripturally and if I thought that God truly required it of me or any man, I would have to seek the Lord's face and set aside everything, and in the end that may even have to be the Lord Himself. If that seems too strong brother then so be it. I care nothing for my so-called reputation one way or another. But I could not serve God easily if I knew that He required me to wilfully break children in order to require them to an unquestioning obedience to me a mere man. If my children respect me and are willing to obey me when they are little children it is because as little children they are in any event willing. As they grow they need to be able to work out there own understanding and either continue in obedience or else suffer in disobedience. But to break then as a mechanism to avoid reality, that I cannot accept.

You should not be under any illusion about how strong this issue is going to become. I am not, and it makes me tremble with fear. I have demonstrated many times here on SI that I put no store by way of Sociology, Psychology or the other Humanity subjects. Neither am I blind to their lies and effects. I simply cannot escape from the conviction that using a switch on children on occasions or the hand, or for that matter even a strap, would amount to very little if that was in fact truly necessary for their sakes. But to set about to break the will of a child as a way of avoiding future parental efforts, by using switches systematically and continuously until a child has been broken in their will……that completely appalls me if I am really honest. It doesn't mean that I hate anyone or that I doubt their integrity or sincerity, it simply goes beyond my ability to ignore it. So there you have it brother.

 2013/6/2 17:51
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: glad I asked instead of jumping to conclusions.

Hi amrkelly, I am working on my response to lysa, but read your response to my question, thank you

It is sometimes easy to jump to wrong conclusions as I almost was before your response.

I am not sure what you where implying by "clean up job", But nothing I personaly wrote was any attempt to a clean up job,(I am not sure if that was what U where implying to or not) If it where I can explain how it was not a clean up job.

 2013/6/2 18:10Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 a couple of thoughts

///What I didn't realise until this last few days was just how even a believer's concerns would be viewed as a threat and seen as a throwing the word of God to the ground. This problem does not exist in England,///

England is more secular and brainwashed in darwin than the US is, and this secular brainwashing even effects Christians.

I agree that political christianity is not the gospel (even hinders the Gospel) but it does offer some protection in our country as of right now, to Kingdom Christians.
I do not fear a super soon persecution to those whom hold and express my views on this subject because as the last thread testifyes, to do so would be to persecute the masses in our country.

But I agree that evil is at work in trying to change the minds in the general populace, from that which was deemed even by secular society as proper parenting 50 years ago is now heavely being pressed by the entertainment media as abuse.(in which is a strategy of Satan to persecute Gods people)

Another thought, even Corporal punishment is still applied in our local school systems.
my mom is in public school administration and has legaly by our states laws applied the procedure fairly recently.

When I was in jr high in the mid 90s many of the teachers had paddles, some with holes in them, one of the coaches had a large leather strap attached with a handle, when spanked by him he would make a deal with the student, that when they where spanked by him, if he did not lift them off of their feet, they could spank him, He never recieved a spanking.)

I used to date the daughter of the head DHS adminstrator over several counties, of what I remember of discussing this type of issue with him, he would be in total agreement with me.

If we are in agreement with the world on this subject than we are probably on the wrong side of the issue.

If we are confused on rather we would help prosecute and trully persecute fellow lovers of Christ, whom love their families more than life, on any issue than we proably need to reexamine or position.



 2013/6/2 18:51Profile









 Re: Late Entry

You simply don't comprehend anything brother save for your fixation on a semantic of corporal discipline expressed in terms which have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have shared.

Well it is as it is. I am finished.

 2013/6/2 19:06
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi amrkelly,

no contention at this time on my part.

I can appreciate your desire to protect children, I will probably if I have time respond to some more of your statements.

 2013/6/2 19:33Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi, lysa

Lysa asked ///1. Are you or are you not defending that Christians have a Biblical right to beat/bruise their toddlers and children?
2. Are you or are you not defending the right that if Christians do in fact beat their toddler/children with the rod and bruises are left behind that Biblically this is acceptable? ///

I am opposed to abuse!

when we hear the word "beat" we get the impression of abuse ,which I am opposed to.

You have wrongfully supposed that because In the 'fosterparent jailed' thread where I mentioned that a bruise is not a sign of abuse, but a scar is, that somehow is evidence that I am defending beating children.

The point I was trying to make was that in that particular case of which, I found no evidence given to the severity of the bruising, which I personally would asume was because the bruising was not severe.

To me, I would not deem a bruise in and of itsself as abuse! and I gave some reasons of why in that post.

At any given time, I can look myself over and I will have a bruise, different people bruise at different degrees. You probably have a bruise some where on your body right now, if not, than either you are not an easy bruiser or you have a very nonactive life.

your children neither learned to walk nor ride a bike nor play a sport with out bruising.(that is a Fact!)
and if they did indeed bruise (and they did!) than by your own judgment you are guilty of neglect!

In that post I made a clear statement that a scar is a sign of abuse, and I made the clear understanding that this both included outward scars as well as inward scars.

Let me make the point that Children that have (extensive) bruising outwardly have been inwardly scared !

that would be abuse!

but I would not deem a light bruise on a butt or leg in and of its self as a sign of abuse, (and from the reading of my states laws I do not believe they would either!)
I am sure that I had many bruises from spankings as a child, I was not physically abused by any means , any feelings that I was is self pity (a wicked and destructive form of pride that is fuelling the hostility to biblical chastisement )

If someone would have seen a bruise on me, from a spanking when I was a child and felt they where doing the will of God by taking me from my Loving parents and have me put in an emotionally scaring foster system, those people rather aware of it or not would have been emotionally scaring and seperating me from the saftey of my parents and placing me in the danger of real abuse such as sexual abuse.
and taking me from a good road and placing me on a bumpy road, Those people would have been Doing the (WILL OF SATAN!)(( no argument on that reality!)) (That would not have been the will of the GOD of Scripture, for them to do that!

Lysa wrote : ///If you said yes to 1, 2 or then please provide how was I speaking evil about "believers in and of the Lord Jesus Christ whom love their children more than their own life??" Thank you///

lysa you had wrote ////They seem to have a vested interest in beating and bruising toddlers and children.////

you where speaking of several of Gods children that had responded in that thread

Yes that was an evil statement!

I do not beat nor bruise my children neither physicaly nor emotionaly nor do the other Christians that posted in that thread.


Edit: sermon index propagrates an excelant video sermon on this topic, It would sum up my view

watch it and tell me if you deem it as propagating abuse.

video sermon, the rod is love: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2905











 2013/6/2 19:41Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3388
East TN (for now)

 Re: proudpapa - I am done too!



proudpapa, you really are proud. I will reiterate what amrkelly said to you because it is my response as well since you danced around my questions.....

Quote:
You simply don't comprehend anything brother save for your fixation on a semantic of corporal discipline expressed in terms which have nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have shared. ~ amrkelly


_________________
Lisa

 2013/6/2 22:33Profile





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