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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Children and the Rod of Correction

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 Re: Lordoitagain…….

I disagree that there is any connection between knowing physical pain and comprehending the consequences of eternal destruction. The one is easy to comprehend and I cannot imagine many children who do not comprehend the reality of physical pain by any number of means. If the inference is that pain inflicted by one in authority forms a better basis for producing a natural psycho-physiological response to that which is itself fearful in remembrance of the pain, then a child may become self governed. But no child comprehends God or eternity. One might say that it is God Himself who recognises this effect in the first instance and hence why we have scriptures which describe this effect. However, this does not mean that this is in any way pleasing to God. It is a direct consequence and response to the fallen nature of the physical body, and of the heart with the growing inclination do that which is contrary to God.

This is the basis for all governments and why we are commanded to submit to them, including our parents. This also does not mean that governments are either just or righteous or that our parents are just or righteous. The basis for submission to authorities is a reality borne out of sin. In the new heavens and the new earth we will not have to experience this struggle. Hence why the remembrance of these things is taken away. Who can imagine that anyone in the new heavens and the new earth will be rebellious? The thousand year kingdom though begins and ends with a show of rebellion. The intervening period is Christ reigning with a rod of iron. All this said does not make for a justification to teach that children need to be beaten with rods in order to learn discipline or righteousness. I didn't beat my own children but they were still able to comprehend authority and the consequences of disobedience. This was largely predicated on my own admission to them that I was myself subject to the judge and the policeman. This was a literal explanation and not a fairy tale. So my own actions and willingness to apologise when I got things wrong, and my insistence that if I broke the law the policeman would hand me over to the judge, the judge to the jailor and I would have to pay for my sins, was there guarantee of my being a just parent. This included a very explanation to them that I had no authority to beat them with instruments. I also gave them the child protection telephone number from the moment they could comprehend it. In short I proved to them what the meaning of justice and righteousness means and not simple claimed its benefit and then caused them to stumble by hypocrisy.

The fact that parents have the authority to physically chastise their children is not the same as saying that a parent can actually physically beat their children with a wooden rod. However, if they do it is a matter of necessity that the child is still subject to their parents, even though they may stumble at such treatment. Let those who countenance this methodology remember this, they will have to give an account to God. It will be measured to them as they have measured to their children and others. This goes for all in authority and not just parents. This is not a recipe for lawlessness, neither does the lack of the rod on children's bodies in the USA or anywhere else produce the ill effect we have today in many places. The reality is far more complex than that and has as much to do with the failure of the churches to walk righteously and a willingness to support unrighteousness in the past. The idea that simply beating your children with wooden rods will prove them to be good and faithful citizens is a false one. History does not support such a view at all.

Please remember for many who believe in the rod, also believe that the best time to apply it is when their children are but little children. We are not talking about what is appropriate with a teenager who is led astray or worse. Nothing this side of heaven will convince me that it is necessary to beat little children with wooden rods. However I do recognise that it is a reality in many homes and I also recognise that when it is done in a none perverse manner and is become truly necessary then physical chastisement is essential, even with little children. Not wooden rods however, or belts or any instrument other than the open hand and even then not in anger. If that seems too perfect a view it is in my understanding no less purist than the insistence that little children can and should of necessity be beaten with wooden rods.

 2013/5/30 14:57
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 879


 Re: Children and the Rod of Correction

Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to disapline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth





 2013/5/30 16:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children. Elibeth



May I ask you sister as you put "switching" in such nice terms whether you realise that Corporal punishment is lawful in the home in all states. State laws confirm the right of parents to inflict physical punishment on their children and legal provisions against violence and abuse are not interpreted as prohibiting all corporal punishment in childrearing. In Minnesota, examination of several laws led some legal experts to conclude that corporal punishment is not permitted in that state, but according to the legislation a parent, legal guardian or caretaker may use reasonable force to restrain or correct a child (Sec. 609.379. [Cr.]) and the Minnesota Court of Appeal has overturned convictions for physical abuse involving corporal punishment.

In short no parent in the USA is prohibited by Law from exercising corporal punishment with regards to their own children. This includes children subject to loco in parentis as well as caretakers of children in many states as well.

Given that this is in fact the Law and very nearly 100 percent of US citizens, as recently as 2004 agreed with this position in the home, how can we say that a failure to discipline children by physical means is the explanation for all of USA societal ills?



 2013/5/30 18:40
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 John Wesley

"Let me reason this case a little farther with you parents that fear God. If you do fear God, how dare you suffer a child above a year old to say, "I will do" what you forbid, or, "I won't do" what you bid, and to go unpunished? Why do not you stop him at once, that he may never dare to say so again? Have you no bowels, no compassion for your child? No regard for his salvation or destruction? Would you suffer him to curse or swear in your presence, and take no notice of it? Why, disobedience is as certain a way to damnation as cursing and swearing. Stop him, stop him at first, in the name of God. Do not "spare the rod, and spoil the child." If you have not the heart of a tiger, do not give up your child to his own will, that is, to the devil. Though it be pain to yourself, yet pluck your offspring out of the lion's teeth. Make them submit, that they may not perish. Break their will, that you may save their soul." - John Wesley

 2013/5/30 20:17Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Thank you Proud papa,
For standing up,and bringing forth such a much needed and timely artical,
According to the Word..
It is almost a fearful thing to bring forth he Lord' counsel against the laws and the worldy wisdom and their counsel now,and seeing the results in the children.

Please,..this is my thought s on this mater:

One must needs talk to a child VERY early,...teaching them the Lord' ways,..what is exceptable and what IS NOT with a very gentle
correction,...between birth and (5) yrs old. I find,if he/she has not been disaplined rightfully by then,he/she is on their way to believing that they are the one in control,....they are the boss,.....and the bigger they get, the more out of control they become,until they are bent to do as they please,and are in for trouble,and we are too...by then,too it is hard to break the rebellious
spirit by then,,which MUST be broke.

It only takes a very small switch in the early stages,...( because the bigger
they get,the biger switch it takes. ) ...it will not hurt them deep,but WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION...but before I would do this,
I would look my child in the eye,and ask very gently,.." Do you know why
you are going to get this switching ?" And then explain why ,...and then on with the switching.

But first of all,..Our relationship with The Lord,is what will help,..guide us
for if our relationship with The Lord is right,...then the fruits of the Spirit
will help in our wisdom and temperance.
Patience ,.love ,..gentleness,.....kindness,...etc,etc,...in all that is needed.

And we know,to discipline and rightful correction IS because we love
them.

Caring,
Elizabeth



Excellent post, Elibeth. And thank you to proudpapa for starting this thread.

There are many testimonies out there from people that were not disciplined and wish they were.

But Elibeth, you are so right that you must begin early with children. Now we know how smart dogs are and we begin training a dog as a newborn puppy. Well, humans are are much more intelligent and will take their cues from their parents (right or wrong) and if we are not training them early on, they are training us. Do you know what I mean?

Young children cannot be reasoned with for they do not understand your language and you should not yell at them. A little switch placed in the right place is all they need. A little pain they understand and it will save their soul. This is not theory to me. I have children (adults and teenagers).

All the best,
Pilgrim

 2013/5/30 20:41Profile









 Re:

Its not too difficult to comprehend why there are so many flatterers in this post. Perhaps what is more difficult to attend to, is why there is such a determination to insist that children are evil and need to be beaten in order to comprehend right from wrong. It is also easy to see the contextual political advantage of quoting Wesley in the manner here done. I was waiting for it. I thought for a while that a certain lady by the name of Mrs Wesley would be quoted. It would appear her son has a sufficiency of his own. Regardless of that, if Wesley intended his words to mean what some here are implying then his preaching was in vain and none of the rebellious sons and daughters who believed in Christ through his preaching were saved. They must have been lost in their infancy. It is a mistaken conception if it is claimed that Wesley is saying beat a one year old child with a rod otherwise they are going to go to eternal destruction because they will be wilful. Religious bigotry will always find its way to the lowest point of reason because it is of itself without reason. "spare not the rod" does not mean beat one year old children with wooden sticks until you have broken them. If it does then be prepared for imprisonment, because that will be the end of the matter. Then our children will be themselves cast away to other mens houses.

Has anyone heard the saying "a rod for his own back?"

 2013/5/30 21:22
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Amr,

You have not addressed my question on why God will severely chastise His own children. For what purpose does God chastise? Do you think it is unjust for the Lord to chastise His own children?

Jer_31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Was the Lord being too severe in Jer 44?
Jer 44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
Jer 44:28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.
Jer 44:29 And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

The Lord allowed Himself to be provoked to anger and He took out His anger on His people. Would the world today, pass judgment on God and prosecute Him and put Him in jail?
Looks like He is more severe than a parent who is switching their child. At least the parent does not forsake her child.
What do you think of God getting angry and forsaking His inheritance (the children of Israel)?

2Ki 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

2Ki 21:15 Because they have done that which was evil in my sight, and have provoked me to anger, since the day their
fathers came forth out of Egypt, even unto this day.

God scourges those He loves. What do you think of that? Don't we learn to be fathers by how the Lord "fathers" us?

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I think your comment about flattery is extreme as I would also thank you if you posted something that blesses me. Be sure that you are not vilifying individuals rather than staying on topic.

 2013/5/30 23:12Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Instuments of love

The hand is not the rod, Gods word is specific, He never tell parents to hit their children with their hands, He always speaks of the rod (a switch)

Michael Pearl "train up a child" p.50 says:

"Instuments of love
Make it a point never to use your hand for spanking. Exceptions should be highly justified. It is usually the impatient,personally offended parent whose hand continually darts out like a snake. The parent, too busy to take the time needed for training, blurts out, "Just get off my back, leave me alone, stop bothering me. "(The hand-swatting is a release of the parents own frustration)
Furthermore, where the child is concerned, hands are for loving, not martial arts. A hand on a diapered bottom is useless as a spanking, but it is effective in causing permanent damage to the spine. There is no surface pain to the child thus whipped. Any pain would be deep inside, similar to a fall or a car wreck. Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain. It is most effective to strike a light rod against bare skin, where nerves are located at the surface. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain with no injury or bruising..."

 2013/5/31 0:07Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

That's a great book. I'm glad I found it as a young father.

"Parenting is not for the faint of heart". Michael Pearl

"Determine what kind of person you want your child to be when they grow up and you become that person, first". Michael Pearl.

"Parenting is 5% training the child and 95% training the parent". Michael Pearl

He is right about that. Many of us did not have godly examples of parenting and a child is like a blank program. Training them should be somewhat easy, but you must train yourself first to be consistent and diligent, firm and loving. Training up your children will go much better if you are consistent and not wishy-washy and if you stay vitally connected to Jesus.

 2013/5/31 1:09Profile
Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 600
Monroe, LA - USA

 Armkelly


Quote:


The fact that parents have the authority to physically chastise their children is not the same as saying that a parent can actually physically beat their children with a wooden rod. However, if they do it is a matter of necessity that the child is still subject to their parents, even though they may stumble at such treatment. Let those who countenance this methodology remember this, they will have to give an account to God. It will be measured to them as they have measured to their children and others.




Nothing this side of heaven will convince me that it is necessary to beat little children with wooden rods. However I do recognise that it is a reality in many homes and I also recognise that when it is done in a none perverse manner and is become truly necessary then physical chastisement is essential, even with little children. Not wooden rods however, or belts or any instrument other than the open hand and even then not in anger. If that seems too perfect a view it is in my understanding no less purist than the insistence that little children can and should of necessity be beaten with wooden rods.





Mr. Arm, when I read statements of yours like this, it makes it obvious to me that you do not believe these verses from God's Holy word: Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

It is as plain as can be written in the English language and very easy to understand that you are ranting and raving against God's Holy word.

If that is not the case, can you please tell us how we are to obey these verses and not beat a child with a rod??? Are you trying to redefine beat, or redefine rod, or are you just advocating that we DISOBEY what God has here clearly unmistakeably commanded?


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2013/5/31 1:29Profile





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