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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Kingdom Authority or Crazy Buffoonery?

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dann
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:
would that exclude Paul too? I doubt that you want to say that. However, Paul seems to imply that Barnabas was an apostle too



Revelation 21:14 says, "And the wall of the city [new Jerusalem] had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Here we see that twelve foundations of the new Jerusalem are named for the twelve apostles.

Will Judas' name be there? I personally do not think so. Will it be Matthias? There is room for doubt, as he was selected by lot, at Peter's prompting prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul on the other hand, was hand picked by Christ.

I think the 12 names will include the 11 apostles (no Judas Iscariot), and Paul. It isn't an opinion that I can go to scripture and -prove- never the less it fits my theology rather snugly. ;-)

Scripture does refer to other men as apostles - I don't think anyone is denying that. I do however wish to keep plain the distinction between the twelve who are named apostles - and the remainder of mankind who make titles for themselves.

Perhaps in stressing the distinction I have swung the pendulum in the other direction? I do not profess to be an expert in these things, I just gravitate to the simplest explanation.

Dan
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Daniel van de Laar

 2005/5/6 11:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Dan
I know many who agree with you in substituting Paul for Matthias, but the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write Acts which includes these verses;

Quote:
“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:” (Acts 2:14, KJVS)

“Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.” (Acts 6:2, KJVS)

Both of these verses are 'after' Matthias' inclusion and before Paul's conversion.

I like 'simple' too, but when the evidence doesn't fit we have to look for another suspect! ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/6 11:46Profile









 Re: Kingdom Authority or Crazy Buffoonery?

I have heard of the "Kingdom Authority" movement. It's a play on words, and it should not be associated with the believers Authority in the Kingdom.

I don't know the ins and outs of this teaching, but I believe John Wimber, Benny Hinn and a others ran with it. I was told by a friend of mine who went to those meetings that when they prayed for people, they didn't pray in Jesus name, they'd touch the person and say, "kingdom come".

And that doesn't mean that that is wrong, what is important is what kind of Word is being presented, is it truth or error, or a little of both.

The Word says, "He sent forth His word and healed them all". I am not so concerned how they are healed or what method is used, what is important is what kind of word is being sent forth, Truth or Error.

 2005/5/6 14:50
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I don't think Hinn was ever part of this movement.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/5/6 15:07Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
I like 'simple' too, but when the evidence doesn't fit we have to look for another suspect! ;-)



Thank you sir, your response was, as always, full of grace.

These verses demonstrate two things plainly:
1) The other Apostles considered Matthias to be one of the twelve
2) The people considered Matthias to be one of the twelve.

I think that is a very accurate assessment - everyone presumed that Matthias was among the twelve - something I could hardly dispute.

But I don't see, from these verses, enough evidence to conclude that -God- endorsed Peter's lottery. Indeed, I only see that -men- endorsed it - a fact well proven by these verses.

So while it would be a tidy thing indeed to dismiss Paul as one of the twelve based on these verses, I do not have enough convincing evidence to do so.

That is not to say that I have enough evidence the other way either - I don't. Hence it remains a "wait and see" sort of theology for me. I suspect - but I cannot go beyond suspicion.

I hope that makes sense :-)

Dan
/\/
\/\


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Daniel van de Laar

 2005/5/6 16:16Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But I don't see, from these verses, enough evidence to conclude that -God- endorsed Peter's lottery. Indeed, I only see that -men- endorsed it - a fact well proven by these verses.


but the verses are part of Luke's history which is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not people who are regarding Matthias as completing the 12 but Luke; and Luke is under inspiration.

THere is another interesting point. The lot has quite a good press in the Old Testament. The land was apportioned by lot, as was the choice of the sin offering. So were the responsibilities of the priests as we read in the story of Zacharias, the father of John. There are a couple of proverbs which praise the lot as a fair method of choice.
Quote:
“The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD. The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.” (Prov. 16:33; 18:18, KJVS)

The picture here is that God is guiding the lot.

Now I am not saying that we should use lots, although John Wesley did on occasion and was rebuked by George Whitefield! There is almost a sense in which the choice of Matthias by lot was the last act of an Old Covenant; the New Covenant coming into full force in Acts 2. When the Spirit took up residence within these external methods of guidance became unnecessary, but the choice of Matthias was part of the older order.

Unless the scripture says so I am always reluctant to think I know better than the apostles. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/6 17:19Profile





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