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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Kingdom Authority or Crazy Buffoonery?

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 Re:

Quote:
So and so told me a story about a guy who decided to pray downtown in his city and ended up being demonically attacked because he left his 'spiritual boundaries'. The man was only responsible for his house territory and if he wanted to pray downtown without getting ambushed in the spirit he would have to receive permission from the spiritual leader of the city.



Back when my wife and I were into the whole WOF thing after we got saved (another way of putting it is "back when we were deceived"!) we went to a church where a woman was healed of breast cancer. Now, I believe that God did allow her a healing, and she was in remission.

After being there awhile I really started to study the scriptures on my own, as did this other family. Eventually a bunch of us left that church about the same time because we all came to the conclusion that WOF is a false doctrine.

About a year later the cancer came back on this woman with a vengeance. The leadership of the church that we had left came to the family and declared to them that the cancer had come back because they had left the spiritual "covering" of that church and were in rebellion.

She eventually died... and not one person who was still in that church came to the funeral. Not one word from the pastor there.

We do not always understand why God allows things to happen, but she did not get sick again and die because we left [b]their[/b] covering. That's manipulation at it's worst.

And she was healed... permanently, the moment she pasted from this life to glory... [b]praise God![/b].

By the way... they went to a Benny Hinn crusade (against my councel...) 3 months before she died, seeking a healing.

I think this is the type of Kingdom Authority (or as I call it: spiritual abuse) you are referring to.

Krispy

 2005/3/16 6:41
MarkDaniel
Member



Joined: 2005/2/20
Posts: 43
Midwest, USA

 Re:

Quote:
The leadership of the church that we had left came to the family and declared to them that the cancer had come back because they had left the spiritual "covering" of that church and were in rebellion.

Quote:
She eventually died... and not one person who was still in that church came to the funeral. Not one word from the pastor there.



Is it no wonder why I weep and beat my chest for those who are under such hate and oppression by these ministers of satan who claim to come in the name of my LORD?


_________________
Mark Daniel

 2005/3/16 8:13Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
The leadership of the church that we had left came to the family and declared to them that the cancer had come back because they had left the spiritual "covering" of that church and were in rebellion.
Quote:
She eventually died... and not one person who was still in that church came to the funeral. Not one word from the pastor there.


Is it no wonder why I weep and beat my chest for those who are under such hate and oppression by these ministers of satan who claim to come in the name of my LORD?




This is certainly a tragedy. If it is of any consolation, rest assured that things are not handled like this every where.


Anyone wish to discuss with me what Kingdom Authority really is Biblically? :-)

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/16 8:56Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:

There were only ever 12 Apostles.



Not so. Check out an article at www.christiansteps.com/doctrine/apostles.html for a list of about 20 or so.



The word transliterated as Apostle is the Koiné word: 'apostolos', and, as I am sure everyone with even a passing knowledge of how to use a lexicon is aware - means delegate, envoy, or messenger; That would be the 'translation'

Christ, however, hand picked certain men to be His personal envoys - which introduced a technical use of the word. It behooves then, as we study scripture, to be careful to make a distinction between the technical term, and the common usage of the word. Greek writers didn't throw out the word for 'envoy' out of their vocabulary just because Christ introduced a -technical- spin to the word that wasn't there before.

That is, when Christ named His Apostles, He introduced a technical distinction - the twelve, hand-picked envoys of Christ became known, (technically) as -the- envoys; while there are other envoys - it is understood that these other 'apostles' are not part of the twelve.

In Revelation 21:14 we see that the term speaks only of the twelve - "Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." But in Galatians 1:19 we see that the term is used generically as James the Lord's brother was not named as one of the twelve - "But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

Sometimes, in our zeal, we either forget or overlook the notion that it is wrong to translate a word all the time in it's most technical sense. Therefore, unless the word is describing one of Christ's twelve hand-picked Apostles - it is very, very likely being used in a non technical sense - and should be understood as such - that is, James, the Lord's brother was certainly an apostle (messenger, envoy) but even though he was highly regarded in the church at Jerusalem, even though he wrote a book in the New Testament - even though he was -an- apostle -yet he was not one of -the- 'Apostles'

Dan
/\/
\/\


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Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/16 12:18Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
By the way... they went to a Benny Hinn crusade (against my councel...) 3 months before she died, seeking a healing.



That truly is a sad story... unChristian.

I would like to remark on you comment above:

Though we all acknowledge false doctrine, strange teachings, and questionable antics in certain ministries, my heart goes out to those people who attend looking for help (like the lady above). I compare it to when Jesus saw the crowd as a flock without a shepherd. It is sad because they are being led astray or being taught sour milk.

However, (and this is nothing more than a thought), but in trying to understand God's heart, I believe he does, in fact, bless and heal people who come, say, to Benny Hinn crusades or whoever it may be. Firstly:

1. The person is genuinely in need of help and they acknowledge that Jesus can heal them, so they come in expectation to be healed. I believe God's mercy extends despite the leader.

2. Either innocence or ignorance, people truly believe in the words of the spiritual leader. They may not be in willful rebellion against God, but are rather deceived. Though the leader may know to be false, the people may be true. I believe God's mercy extends to them.

I guess this is a matter of mercy. Hosea 6:6 - [i]"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."[/i] When I hear of people that are healed at these special meetings, I am glad, and I believe Jesus has done it, for his glory, in his compassion.

Compassion... yes. There is a flock out there. There are hired hands that aren't true, but Jesus loves His sheep, and there is most certainly real Christians in the wrong place.

Jesus is my Lord,
-Eli


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2005/3/16 14:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Sometimes, in our zeal, we either forget or overlook the notion that it is wrong to translate a word all the time in it's most technical sense. Therefore, unless the word is describing one of Christ's twelve hand-picked Apostles - it is very, very likely being used in a non technical sense - and should be understood as such - that is, James, the Lord's brother was certainly an apostle (messenger, envoy) but even though he was highly regarded in the church at Jerusalem, even though he wrote a book in the New Testament - even though he was -an- apostle -yet he was not one of -the- 'Apostles'



Thank you... you just clarified my position on this. I just couldnt formalize it into words. That helped.

Krispy

 2005/3/16 14:29









 Re:

Quote:
Though we all acknowledge false doctrine, strange teachings, and questionable antics in certain ministries, my heart goes out to those people who attend looking for help (like the lady above). I compare it to when Jesus saw the crowd as a flock without a shepherd. It is sad because they are being led astray or being taught sour milk.

However, (and this is nothing more than a thought), but in trying to understand God's heart, I believe he does, in fact, bless and heal people who come, say, to Benny Hinn crusades or whoever it may be. Firstly:

1. The person is genuinely in need of help and they acknowledge that Jesus can heal them, so they come in expectation to be healed. I believe God's mercy extends despite the leader.

2. Either innocence or ignorance, people truly believe in the words of the spiritual leader. They may not be in willful rebellion against God, but are rather deceived. Though the leader may know to be false, the people may be true. I believe God's mercy extends to them.

I guess this is a matter of mercy. Hosea 6:6 - "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." When I hear of people that are healed at these special meetings, I am glad, and I believe Jesus has done it, for his glory, in his compassion.

Compassion... yes. There is a flock out there. There are hired hands that aren't true, but Jesus loves His sheep, and there is most certainly real Christians in the wrong place.

Jesus is my Lord,
-Eli



mmm... good word, Eli

Krispy

 2005/3/16 14:30
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Either innocence or ignorance, people truly believe in the words of the spiritual leader.



Deception can grip even the innocent. Deception is no respector of persons. Deception purely comes from lack of knowledge. People parish because of lack of knowledge. I belive there are many people who truely love God and want him to move, but are just lacking knowledge of what God likes and dislikes, what he approves and disaproves.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Hos. 4:6a

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/16 15:18Profile
dadman
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Joined: 2005/5/6
Posts: 1


 Re: Kingdom Authority or Crazy Buffoonery?

http://www.livingway.org/GRAPHICS/Gods_dominion1.pdf#search='jack%20hayford%20on%20kingdom%20authority'

 2005/5/6 0:22Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That is, when Christ named His Apostles, He introduced a technical distinction - the twelve, hand-picked envoys of Christ became known, (technically) as -the- envoys; while there are other envoys - it is understood that these other 'apostles' are not part of the twelve.

would that exclude Paul too? I doubt that you want to say that. However, Paul seems to imply that Barnabas was an apostle too
Quote:
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” (1Cor. 9:5, KJVS)

Paul also regards James, the Lord's half brother as an apostle...
Quote:
“But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.” (Gal. 1:19, KJVS)


by implication he calls Silas as apostle too
Quote:
“Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.” (1Th. 2:6, KJVS) cf. Acts 17:10



the simple fact is there have been (and may yet be) different kinds of apostles. I do not regard Paul as one of the 12 Apostles but that does not mean he was not apostle, only that he was not one of the 12. Titus was also an 'apostle'
Quote:
“Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.” (2Cor. 8:23, KJVS)

where the word has been translated 'messenger'. But it does not mean he had the same kind of 'apostleship' as the 12 or Paul. The same is true of Epaphroditus;
Quote:
“Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.” (Phil. 2:25, KJVS)

where again the word is translated as 'messenger'.

I think our problems stem from the fact that we stereotype so many of the 'functions' referred to in the NT and make them into formal offices. We then get into the territory of defending the word 'apostle' against people who misuse it. In doing so we are really defending our definition of apostle. but the word 'apostle' is not a title; it is simply what people do.

I have made this point before (just a couple of dozen times) but Paul did not give himself the 'title' of apostle, neither did anyone else during his lifetime. He is simply describing what he does and under whose authority he does it.

The Lord hardly every admitted to being the Messiah; why? Because His definition of the word and that of the Jews of His day were so different that to admit to 'Messiahship' could only confuse them more. It is interesting that He had no such reservations with a Samaritan woman. I am sure that if you transported Epaphroditus into our current culture and said 'are you an apostle?' he would have a similar dilemma. We have the same struggle with many NT words which have now acquired such a meaning that we can hardly use them without adding to the misunderstanding

The folly of the shepherding movement was that they defined words like 'apostle' from the accounts of people like Paul and then thought they could model their own authority on what they perceived his to have been. Crazy circular thinking which caused immense damage to many souls.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/5/6 4:37Profile





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