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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Didn't the apostles speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost? Didn't people criticize and say that they were drunk? But didn't the apostle Peter stand up with the eleven and lift up his voice saying to all on that day, that they were not drunk "like you think" but "this is that" spoken by the prophet Joel.



Now we can have the opinions of men or we can what the bible says. Now Peter said that they received what the scripture says they were to receive by saying "this is that" and he was satisfied with speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.



Now a person can say that he has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit without the evidence of the Spirit giving him/her the utterance to speak supernaturally, but it can't be to the same measure that they received on the day of Pentecost.



Jesus made it clear in Acts 1:5,8 that the baptism in the Holy Spirit was the Spirit coming upon them for power to lay down their lives for the testimony of Jesus Christ. This baptism was to bring supernatural power within them to do what they could not possibly do without the Holy Spirit enabling them.



Now if the Holy Spirit has not come upon you and filled you to overflowing power to cause you speak in the language of His choosing by His ability than you have not experienced it in the same fashion that they did on the day of Pentecost.You can't claim you have if you haven't, but now you can claim you have received something but not that. You can claim about anything you want to claim, even that what you have received is just as good or better than what the apostles received on the day if you really want to be that ignorant.



What it all comes down to is this, you have either received the Holy Spirit in the same fashion as they received it on the day of Pentecost or you haven't, then you have to decide for yourself whether you are satisfied with not receiving it the way they did or whether you going to believe like so many have and that is- that he doesn't do it like that anymore because those days are over.



We all are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.



Blessings to all!

 2013/5/27 21:52Profile
docseth1
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Joined: 2008/5/17
Posts: 173
Valdosta, Ga

 Re: Redeeming the Baptism of the Holy Ghost from Pentecostalism - Mike Atnip

The main problem with this writer is his failure to recognize the difference between being born again and being baptized in the Holy Spirit. The two expressions are not synonymous. I readily admit that there is much in the pentecostal and charismatic world that is shameful and needs to be rejected, however, de-emphasizing spiritual gifts is not the way either.

Also, condemning people who actually allow there emotions to be touched by God as probably immoral and adulterers and bomb droppers is not fair and shows that this writer has not gotten very aquainted with many Pentecostals. Before anything else, the Pentecostal movement began as a holiness movement. True Pentecostals still seek to honor God through holy living.

I commend this writer for having a zeal for truth; but in this case, it is a zeal without knowledge.


_________________
Cliff

 2013/7/23 20:29Profile









 Re: Redeeming the Baptism of the Holy Ghost from Pentecostalism - Mike Atnip

I always gain a great deal from Anabaptist writings and this one was no exception. It has confirmed what the Lord has been teaching me these last few months concerning when the new birth occurs.

Their grasp of scripture, I have found, is firmer than that from most other parts of the church. I am in agreement with nearly all that the writer says especially concerning the new birth and the baptism :

"Peter, who only a few days before had vehemently denied that he even knew Jesus, now was empowered to boldly stand in front of a crowd and proclaim, “This is that which the prophet Joel prophesied about!” When the crowd asked what they needed to do, Peter told them the simple steps to take: repent of their disobedience, be baptised in the name of Jesus (being “baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” implied a total submission to Him as King of their life) … and they too could experience the baptism—the spiritual rebirth—of the Holy Spirit."

***1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead***

This is what it is all about - the new life, the union with Christ, the fulfilment of the promises, what the whole of the OT explains, the baptism of the Spirit, the cleansing of the sin nature, the restoration of a man with his God.

There is only one blessing actually, when we consider something so profound as this. All of the confusion is due to semantics concerning the previous works of God in man.

There are previous works, we can see that clearly with the disciples. They were called and they followed. They were breathed on by Christ, transferring the Holy Spirit to work on them (but not to dwell within yet in fullness).

If only we could agree about the new birth. It has been watered down and imposed upon the earlier stages that we plainly see in the disciples pre Pentecost.

"I say this in conclusion: the born-again children of God and new creatures in Christ Jesus are those who are born again out of God the heavenly Father through Christ Jesus and are renewed and sanctified through the Holy Spirit, who have become participants of the divine nature, of the being of Jesus Christ, and of the character of the Holy Spirit."

However the writer is wrong here :

"They are those who have died to sin and still daily die more and more"

and this is the reason why the power of God given at the genuine baptism of the Spirit or its fruit is so lacking today.

There is always a sense of cleansing when a man has an encounter with God but unless he has truly been born again it will not stick. We neglect at our peril the clear teachings from 1 John and Romans 6, if we think that sin remains in the born again.

If there is sin then the man has not been born again, though he will be a true disciple and may have even known the breathing on of the Holy Spirit which sets him apart in sanctification.

I am not going to use the term second blessing any more.

When we look back in history we find much clearer teaching on sinlessness than we can ever find today.

"Yet it is possible even for one with a mortal body, not to sin. Do you see the abundancy of Christ's grace? How is it then that 'sin reigns'? It's not from any power of it's own but from your own listlessness. (Chrysostom)

The state of being without sin is traditionally known as union with God with earlier stages known as Purgation and illumination.

Pentecostalism has indeed caused much confusion and error.

 2013/7/24 2:59
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

krautfrau wrote:

Quote:
If there is sin then the man has not been born again, though he will be a true disciple and may have even known the breathing on of the Holy Spirit which sets him apart in sanctification.



How can one be a true disciple of Jesus Christ without being born again? Being born again is the very first step in being a true disciple. If you are not born again you have no part or lot with Christ, you are still dead in your sins and under God's wrath. When one is born again they are indwelt by the Spirit of God, and, "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ He is none of His"(Romans 8:9).

And how can one experience sanctification of the Spirit without being born again of the Spirit first? Jesus taught clearly that when one is born again the Spirit of God is at work within the heart of the true believer(John 3:8). You cannot have that sanctifying grace without the new birth.

The truth is, though we are born again and true disciples, we are not yet glorified and are still in these bodies of flesh and will at times fall into temptation, whether in thought, word, or deed, sins of omission or commission. That is not to say we can be born again or true disciples and still be under the dominion or power of sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us, we no longer serve sin but righteousness if we are born again and true disciples of Jesus(Rom.6:14).

As long as we are on this side of heaven we will have to wage war against our flesh and put to death its deeds by the power of the Spirit who indwells us and fills us with His presence and power.

That is not watering down any truth of Scripture, it is simply being true to His Word and reality.

May God continuously fill us to overflowing with His presence and power to live victoriously and bring Him the most glory while we are on this earth!


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Oracio

 2013/7/24 14:02Profile









 Re:

Hi Oracio

I used to fit the scriptures around what I had been taught, but now I don't. I allow scripture to speak for itself.

I mean, how clearer can this verse be "1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

It says that baptism of the Spirit saves us. So when you thought that you were baptised with the Spirit did it enable you to live the life we read the apostles led? Why not?

 2013/7/24 15:31
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi krautfrau, you wrote, "I used to fit the scriptures around what I had been taught, but now I don't. I allow scripture to speak for itself."

There are certain essential truths of Scripture which God has revealed to His saints throughout history, such as the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the reality of heaven and hell, and the necessity of the new birth for salvation.

In holding firmly to those teachings we do not merely accept the traditions of men but heartily embrace the faith once delivered to the saints.

In rejecting those basic truths we are in spiritual danger.


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Oracio

 2013/7/24 15:52Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

This is something that I feel very strongly about. I have read over and over and over in the Bible how men were filled with the Spirit and the Holy Spirit enabled them to do things which would have been impossible for them otherwise. I often find myself praying to be filled with the Spirit. Something that frustrates me is that I see in scripture that the filling of the Spirit is something that is supposed to happen multiple times ( Just count how many times Peter and others were filled with the Spirit in the book of Acts. It didn't just happen once.), and I can't hardly have this as a reality in my own life. I keep pressing on though.

 2013/7/24 16:17Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

krautfrau, you also wrote:

Quote:
I mean, how clearer can this verse be "1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

It says that baptism of the Spirit saves us. So when you thought that you were baptised with the Spirit did it enable you to live the life we read the apostles led? Why not?


If 1Pet.3:21 is referring to Spirit-baptism, it correlates with 1Cor.12:13 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”

So we’re taught that every single true believer is baptized by the Spirit.

Jesus clearly taught that if we are not born again of the Spirit we cannot see God’s kingdom. In other words, we cannot be saved or disciples if we are not born again. Make sense?


_________________
Oracio

 2013/7/24 16:45Profile









 Re:

Oracio wrote : There are certain essential truths of Scripture which God has revealed to His saints throughout history, such as the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the reality of heaven and hell, and the necessity of the new birth for salvation.

In holding firmly to those teachings we do not merely accept the traditions of men but heartily embrace the faith once delivered to the saints.

In rejecting those basic truths we are in spiritual danger.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, The basics are non negotiable, but how and when sanctification occurs, has been in dispute since the beginning, as seen in the teachings of the church Fathers.

Oracio wrote : If 1Pet.3:21 is referring to Spirit-baptism, it correlates with 1Cor.12:13 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”

So we’re taught that every single true believer is baptized by the Spirit.

Jesus clearly taught that if we are not born again of the Spirit we cannot see God’s kingdom. In other words, we cannot be saved or disciples if we are not born again. Make sense?

-----------------------------------------------------------

No, we are taught that those who are in Christ have been baptised into the kingdom. However, we see with the disciples, that they were believers and followers of Christ before they were baptised into the body. Many also witness to believing they were baptised into Christ and discovering later that they were believing it as a position whereas their experience of it was discordant. They then prayed that the Lord would baptise them and it became a reality.

What we receive when we first come to Christ, makes it a possibility. We receive power to BECOME sons of God, not are sons of God at that point.

havok20x wrote : I often find myself praying to be filled with the Spirit. Something that frustrates me is that I see in scripture that the filling of the Spirit is something that is supposed to happen multiple times ( Just count how many times Peter and others were filled with the Spirit in the book of Acts. It didn't just happen once.), and I can't hardly have this as a reality in my own life. I keep pressing on though.

----------------------------------------------------------

Baptism with the Spirit is not the same thing as a filling, which occurs at a point of special need. However the baptism must have occurred previous to this otherwise we are not in Christ as scripture describes. I thought that I was in Christ for a long time but was not living the life that I saw clearly in scripture although I was a believer in the same sense as the disciples pre Pentecost.

 2013/7/25 1:57
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Be careful not to add to the Gospel, brother. True belief on Jesus Christ will produce salvation, not because of us, but because of Him. When I believed, my heart was regenerated. It went from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. No longer was I bound by the curse, but I was redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Upon conversion was His Spirit put in me. My life changed. I went from never thinking thoughts about the Lord, to constantly thinking about the Lord. I went from not caring about any sin in my life and loving it, to being grieved over the "smallest" sins. I passed from death to life. The Bible says that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and that they will not be cast out. It says in a familiar, but so overlooked verse that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed on the name of the only Son of God. If in repentance, by grace, and through faith we believe, then the Holy Spirit moves in and regenerates us and we are converted to Christ.

But after that, the believer should seek to be filled daily with the Holy Spirit. Why? Because what we are called to do is impossible for us to do in our own strength and power! Can you speak to the heart of man? Unless you are empowered by the Spirit, I assure you that you cannot. Can you beat your flesh into submission? Unless you are empowered by the Spirit, I assure you that you cannot. Can you pray as you ought, live as you ought, seek God as He ought to be sought, love as you ought, etc, etc, etc??? NO! Not unless the Holy Spirit strengthens you day to day to live a life that is Holy and pleasing to Him then you will never become more like Christ. We are not perfected until the resurrection. We will never be perfect in this life. That isn't an excuse for sin, but it is the reality in which we live. We have got to be filled with the Spirit.

 2013/7/25 11:08Profile





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