Quote:The simple to answer to this is Dohzman's "yes".
But I guess that's a bit different because they are declaring that God Himself is holy, not His name. Yet I wonder how profound the connection is with God and His name. At least as far as giving honor goes, are they equal? Is honoring God's name equal to honoring God?
The name is the person, not a possession of the person. God's names are not labels but expressions of His character. This doesn't work for us westerners. "Who are you?" We may give our 'name' as an answer but it doesn't tell you much. Our names are casual labels.
A silly illustration. I am named after Ronald Reagen. Yes, seriously. In the early war years my mother, a couple of months before my birth, visited the cinema and was very impressed by a good looking American with a very pleasant voice. (well, I got the name anyway!) Reagen was the 'acceptable face' of America over here; he was always the 'good American'. So I carry the name of an ex-president of the USA! This tells you nothing at all about me! (Although it may tell you a lot about my mother! :-? )
God's names are not casual labels. If you ask God "who are you?" His name would reveal his character. My name reveals my mother's character! This why the names of Bible characters is often so significant; Jacob; twisted by name, twisted by nature. Moses; drawn out by name; drawn out by nature. Joshua (Jesus) Jehovah Saviour; Jesus is not just his label but is His nature.
As Jewish scruples developed the 'name of the Lord' became a euphemism for God Himself. In His great high priestly prayer of John 17 Jesus says; And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:26 KJV) means I have revealed your nature, or person, to them. This is why he would say to Philip "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" and incidentally why Christ is called 'the Everlasting Father' in Isaiah 9:6.
Paul's question becomes much more significant when we realise the way names are used. "Who art thou Lord?" Answer: "I am Jehovah-Saviour who you are persecuting"
Consequently; "Thy Name be hallowed" means. Let God be above and beyond all. It is this combination of "Our Father" and "God transcendent" that is unique to Christianity.
| 2005/3/15 5:38||Profile|
| Re: Hallowed Be Your Name?|
I saw this as I was perusing the antiquted files...and thought I'd share with you.
"Hallowed be Thy name"
I always look at it or explain it like this (very simple)...
"Let Your name be taken out of the commonplace, the mundane, the worldly, and on purpose I will lift it up to it's rightful place in my life first, for all to see. Your name is holy."
| 2005/6/23 2:31||Profile|
Oh dear saints of the Holy One,
If there is one thing that has been on my heart of late, it has been this subject above. We have lost sight of the holiness, the majesty, the wonder of our God, Who is without limit, measure, or border in His nature. Unless we can come to the place of deep comprehension of the above, we will not be able to come to the place of obedience and worship.
Oh how my spirit is groaning this morning. As there can be no image of our God, there is no grammatical arrangement of words in any language that can adequately provide the human heart with an understanding of our Almighty God.
Don't you really find it a pathetic blight in churches today that have for the most part lost their reverence? I do.
I have often pondered the scene where Aaron's son's offered an unholy fire unto the Lord. The FIRE of God bursting forth and slaying them on the spot. Wow. And the scripture said, "Aaron said nothing". NOTHING! How dare he say anything! Would you? My Lord and My God, it is just so difficult to imagine. How could you not fear the Lord and respect the fact that He is absolutely Holy and perfect and is to be held in reverence and devotion continually in our hearts after such a scene? Yet we often reduce Him to little more than a genie in a tabernacle. Just rub Him a bit when you are in trouble, you're sick, or your finances are in a mess. Is it just me, or do we need to get on our faces before God and beg for a much more broad view of this Supremity without limit, measure, or border? Oh God help us all today.
When I was in religion in my youth, when we would enter the "church building", before we would take our seat, we would bow on one knee because we believed that God was physically present in the bread in a small tabernacle on the altar. There was always at least one candle lit except during the time that Jesus was supposed to be in the grave during the easter commemoration.
We would not visit with our neighbor in "church". We would kneel in prayer. In other words, we respected and revered what we thought was the physical presence of God.
Are we not His tabernacles? Where is the reverence for His dwelling place. We don't reverence it ourselves, then we wonder why others don't. They cannot see any of His glory spilling forth from our vessels, why should they believe He is truly there? Come on somebody!
What happened to this fear and awe of God? It has all but slipped away. Is it any wonder that obedience is "optional" in this hour. As our brother stated above, God does not tolerate optional obedience. He didn't with Moses, or Saul, and so many more down through the pages of the bible and history. There is no compromise to God's law. Yet we seldom give it any thought, because we have lost sight of the consequences of disobedience.
Disobedience is sin. Sin is not a popular topic in this hour. It doesn't fit into "self esteem". Can somebody please find "self esteem" in the bible for me? I can't.
Beloved, we have been "set up", by the gradual degradation of our values and truth. We have let this happen and said nothing because those who have fed us this bunk did so in such a way as to appeal to the flesh. God's Word and commandments do not appeal to the flesh. CRUCIFY THE FLESH!
Oh that we might ask our Holy God to give us a spirit that is in awe of His grandure, perfection, and might. Oh that we would have such wisdom as to fear and tremble at just one thought of Who He Is and where He dwells. My God, we need to get back to preaching and discussing this continually. If people don't know God, how would you expect them to realize the necessity of serving and obeying Him?
Yes it is a conspiracy what has happened in our churches. Because it has happened in our churches, it is happening in our streets. Satan and his lies are behind it all. But we have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. It's time to repent. It's time to turn around, and turn back to God. We've been on the right road, but we have been going the wrong way. Stop. Turn around...toward God, and like David, offer a sacrafice of praise every six paces until God has been restored to His proper place, not in Jerusalem, but in our heart. Glory be to God, now and forever more.
In fear and trembling,
| 2005/6/23 9:17|
Thanks for bringing this up again Josh, and sharing your insights with me. I still am not feeling totally clear on what this really means and why Jesus prayed it, but I'm getting closer I think.
"Consequently; "Thy Name be hallowed" means. Let God be above and beyond all."
I think there's mainly one thing I am not clear on. When Jesus says "Your Name" to God, which name is He referring to? The name "God"? The name "Jehovah"? The name "Lord God?" The name "Heavenly Father"? There's so many names for God. Did Jesus have a particular one in mind? (I know I am sounding rediculous but this is what I wonder about. What did Jesus really mean?)
If Jesus meant all of these and more, why didn't He say, "Your name[b]s[/b] be hallowed"? Because it seems that God doesn't have just one name, He has many names.
Does His name (which one?) still reveal His character in modern language? What does the word/name "God" reveal? I think in the OT a name for God was "YHWH" or something like that. What did that name reveal about God? I know some of His names like "Jehovah Rapha" reveals something about God. But how often do we address God like that?
In the OT I've come across something similar. I've been camped out in Psalm 145 for awhile now and I usually just skip the first part becaus I just don't get it.
"I will extol (raise/lift up) Thee, my God, O King; And I will bless (kneel before) Thy name forever and ever."
Since I started really walking with God, I wondered what this kind of language meant. I remember singing songs about it in chapel at college (like "Lord I life Your name on high") and feeling like "Wow, I'm being really cheesy... I don't even know what the heck these words I'm singing even mean... Why would I bless God's name instead of Him directly?" I asked around but I don't remember getting much understanding of it back then either.
Picking up at Psalm 145:2, I can relate: "Every day I will bless [b]Thee[/b]..." but then once again, "...And I will praise (boast of, celebrate, glorify, make radiant, cause to shine) [b]Your name[/b] forever and ever."
C'mon David! Do you want to bless Him or His name?
I feel sure that I am in need of a greater revelation of what it really means to bless and/or praise God's name. What was David really seeing/thinking when he spoke like this?
I feel like I have some understanding concerning simply praising God. Simple statements like "God, you are wonderful. You are glorious." And saying these things often feels powerful and great coming from my heart. It feels so right. Like I really connect with God in that.
But how do I praise His [i]name[/i]? I want to get real practical here. I could say, "God, Your name is holy. Your name is awesome." But I don't think that would really be from my heart because I think I don't really know what I would be saying. I think that might just be religious lip service and I want to give something more real to God... from my heart.
I want to praise His name because David did it all the time and He is forever known as "The man after God's own heart." I get the impression that there's far more to this than I currently understand.
I'm coming to the conclusion that when the Bible speaks of "God's name" it is referring to things like His reputation, fame, memory, and cause.
These are the things that come to my mind when I hear someone's name. Like if you hear the name "Michael Jordan" (first of all he's famous enought that most of you probably know of him) you probably think of (remember) his reputation (Best basketball player of all time, good looking, "got it all", successful, etc.) and his cause (basketball, team owner, etc.).
If you think about the name "William Wallace" (another famous one) it's a little easier to grasp. You think of (remember) his reputation (well spoken of, brave, mighty, romantic, dangerous, etc.) and his cause ("FREEDOM!").
And I think great fame is associated with greater glory and honor, etc.
I can imagine a free man in Scotland some years after William Wallace was tortured and killed. He knows the stories, he knows what Wallaces' sacrifice did and what his life meant for him, his country, his family, etc. There might be a sacredness about his name. Imagine such a man, perhaps, in a town square and he sees another man spit and overhears him say, "Wallace was a moron! What a loser!"
Such comments would dishonor his name (memory, reputation, fame, etc.). But his name is to be kept "holy", if you will (for the sake of example). His name already is "holy" is history, but those who loved him and know of him want his name (memory) to remain "holy" (sacred).
I think this kind of gets at the idea of "hallowing" God's name and praying for God to "hallow" (make sacred, distinguished [?]) His own name. That His name (reputation, honor, fame, memory) would be honored and continually be kept holy (sacred, distinguished) in all creation.
"'Hallowed be Thy name'
I always look at it or explain it like this (very simple)...
'Let Your name be taken out of the commonplace, the mundane, the worldly, and on purpose I will lift it up to it's rightful place in my life first, for all to see. Your name is holy.'"
You call that simple?:-x "[i]Very[/i] simple?" :-x :-x
Ok, the first part I connect with, "'Let Your name be taken out of the commonplace, the mundane, the worldly..."
Yes, I see that. That's good. It does, however, seem strange to me to ask the Creater God to let His own name be made holy among creation like this. I mean, why pray it? God already wants it to be that way.
To me this speaks of the great importance of intercession and man's cooperation with God in making God's perfect will manifest upon the earth.
The second part I am having a harder time grasping... "and on purpose I will lift it up to it's rightful place in my life first, for all to see."
How does one do this?
And the last part... "Your name is holy."
So after all of that, His name, already and regardless, is holy.
So it seems there's at least 2 main aspects to this phrase, "Hallowed be Your name." First, that God's name [i]would be made/established as[/i] holy in all creation. Second, that His name [i]eternally is[/i] holy.
Lahry, I appreciate your zeal for the holiness of God.
| 2005/6/23 12:20||Profile|
It is an act of will-full submission to the pre-existing holiness that is already His.
Reminds me of Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus..." This is an act, again, of willfull submission to allow the mind of Christ, the attitudes of Christ, to take up residence within you.
"Think Your thoughts in me, Lord."
Just because God already wants it to be that way in us and the rest of creation doesn't mean that it is that way. We must yield. Surrender. Give up and allow Him to come in and reign in and through us, supreme.
How does one do this? By yielding. Whenever I see a yield sign, I see a person, an individual, with his arms raised in surrender. An individual who instead of hurrying out in front, allows the other the right of way. And that is one aspect/attitude that Jesus instructs us to have and hold in the walk we have with our heavenly Father.
| 2005/6/23 12:31||Profile|
me" to God, which name is He referring to? The name "God"? The name "Jehovah"? The name "Lord God?" The name "Heavenly Father"? There's so many names for God. Did Jesus have a particular one in mind? (I know I am sounding rediculous but this is what I wonder about. What did Jesus really mean?)
No, I don't think it is ridiculous. I think it is our struggle to get into a different culture. For us our name is something we have; for the Hebrew the name was the person. For us our name is a label and and an acquisition, for the Hebrew it 'stood for the person' and it revealed that person.
If you remember the mysterious encounter between Jacob and the 'angel' you will remember that part of the struggle was over the names of the combatants.
To know the name of someone gave the knower a measure of control over that person. This is an ancient concept all over the word. A Tibetan buddhist child may be given a 'secret name' that not even the child knows. The name is put into a container which remains around the neck until death. At death the person 'doing the funeral' opens the little casket and uses the 'secret name' for his ceremony. Behind this is the notion that if you know the name you can control the person. So demons could control the child if they had the 'name'. But no one knows the 'name' so no one can exercise control until the very last moments when someone conducts the funeral rites using the 'secret name'. To westerners this is all just wierd, but to other cultures the name IS the person.
The Lord's prayer of John 17 is instructive in this. The prayer includes the passage where He says 'he has declared God's name'; He has revealed God. In that sense it is not the pronunciation of the name that is important but its associations.
Jehovah or Yahweh as it was probably pronounced was a name with built in associtions. Exodus 6 details 7 great 'I wills' of Jehovah. The name was to be forever associated with deliverance and redemption and the establishing of a unique kingdom of priests. And all achieved in 'covenant'. Jehovah is the covenant name for Israel. It is the name of God. Jehovah-Father, Jehovah-Son, Jehovah Spirit.
But great at the name Jehovah is, it is not as great as Jesus, Jehovah-Saviour. The pronunciation of the name is of relative unimportance; it is the Person we know by this name. The name is illustrous because of Him who bore it.
| 2005/6/23 15:25||Profile|
You asked which Name was Jesus referring to?
In the context of the Lord's prayer which begins 'Our Father', it is the Name 'Father'.
In John 17, referred to by philologos, Jesus prays in v 11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and [b]I come to thee. Holy Father[/b], keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
We come to THE Holy Father, through Jesus - through [i]the NAME[/i] of Jesus, which has been raised [i]above[/i] every other name - [i]by His Father[/i].
By the way, have you thought of [i]asking[/i] the Lord what it means to [i]be[/i] 'in His Name'? I suspect if you do, [i]He[/i] will reveal this to you and you will also [i]know[/i] by default, what His Name 'Holy' [i]means[/i], after that.
Remember, the Name 'Father' had been held as unique to God in a formal sense and Jesus was accused of blasphemy by the Jews when He referred to God the Father as [i]His[/i] Father in John 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, [b]My Father[/b] worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 [b]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him[/b], because he not only had broken the sabbath, but [b]said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God[/b].
We are so familiar with the concept of God as a loving Father, which in fact only becomes a reality to us through 'being born of God' - 'born of the Spirit' - I think we forget how radical it was for even Jesus to have talked the way He did, with such familiarity about the God who only visited His people once a year in the HOLY of HOLIES on the Day of Atonement.
I think you asked a good question at the beginning of this thread, with which the Holy Spirit is provoking you to grapple. I'm sure you will get an answer from the Lord Himself, as you are open to hear from Him. Even though I've posted here, I do believe it is the Lord Who will reveal Himself to you in such a way as for you to be able to come back and post the answer yourself, for the rest of us. :-)
| 2005/6/24 8:40|
Man, ya'll dig waaaay too deep. The Bible is simple. There are no underlying messages, and when Jesus said that, He was simply blessing his Father, for His Name is great. Hallowed is beyond sacred, which the word hallowed is the only word us mortals can grasp. His Name is much greater than anything we can even begin to understand.
| 2005/6/24 12:11||Profile|
I think what Rubin is trying to say is somewhere along the lines of God is not the author of confusion, and he's correct in saying that the Bible is a simple message. I'm sure what Jesus is reflecting is that God is Holy, Jesus did not need to make Him known as such since the Old Testament is exactley that... a testament to God's Holiness and Hallowedness. Jesus was teaching us how to pray and the first thing we are to do in Prayer is come before God meek and humble and proclaim His awesomeness as best as we can portray. There are some things that God can speak to us through the Word and The Spirit such as meditating on what way's God is Hallowed, there are no underlying messages true but there are different ways God can speak to us through a single verse. I love you all.
| 2005/6/24 13:01||Profile|
| Re: Hallowed Be Your Name?|
I'm no Greek scholar, but I agree with inotof. I've always read it as "Let Your Name be revered."
| 2005/6/24 13:15||Profile|