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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3518


Excerpt from Frank Bartleman on "How Pentecost Came to Los Angeles."

"In the revival in Wales the great expounders of England had to come and sit at the feet of crude, hard working miners, and see the wonderful works of God. I wrote for the “Way of Faith” at this time: “The real thing is appearing among us. The Almighty will again measure swords with Pharaoh’s magicians. But many will reject Him and blaspheme. Many will fail to recognize Him, even among His professed followers. We have been praying and believing for a ‘Pentecost,’ Will we receive it when it comes?

The present Pentecostal manifestation did not break out in a moment, like a huge prairie fire, and set the world on fire. In fact no work of God ever appears that way. There is a necessary time for preparation. The finished article is not realized at the beginning. Men may wonder where it came from, not being conscious of the preparation, but there is always such. Every movement of the Spirit of God must also run the gauntlet of the devil’s forces. The Dragon stands before the bearing mother, ready to swallow up her child. - (Rev. 12:4.) And so with the present Pentecostal work in its beginning. The enemy did much counterfeiting. God kept the young child well hid for a season from the Herods, until it could gain strength and discernment to resist them. The flame was guarded jealously by the hand of the Lord, from the winds of criticism jealousy, unbelief, etc. It went through about the same experiences that all revivals have, its foes were both inside and out. Both Luther and Wesley experienced the same difficulties in their time. We have this treasure in “earthen vessels.” Every natural birth is surrounded by circumstances not entirely pleasant. God’s perfect work is wrought in human imperfection. We are creatures of “the fall.” Then why expect a perfect manifestation in this case? We are coming “back to God.”

John Wesley writes of his time: “Almost as soon as I was gone two or three began to take their imaginations for impressions from God. Meantime, a flood of reproach came upon me almost from every quarter. Be not alarmed that Satan sows tares among the wheat of Christ. It has ever been so, especially on any remarkable outpouring of the Spirit; and ever will be, until the devil is chained for a thousand years. Till then he will always ape, and endeavor to counteract the work of the Spirit of Christ.” D’Aubigne has said: “A religious movement almost always exceeds a just moderation. In order that human nature may make one step in advance, its pioneers must take many.”

Another writer says: “Remember with what accompaniments of extravagance and fanaticism the doctrine of justification by faith was brought back under Luther. The wonder was, not that Luther had the courage to face pope and cardinals, but that he had courage to endure the contempt which his own doctrines brought upon him, as espoused and paraded by fanatical advocates. Recall the scandal and offense which attended the revival of heart piety under Wesley. What we denounce as error may be “the refraction of some great truth below the horizon.”

John Wesley himself once prayed, after the revival had about died out for the time: “Oh, Lord, send us the old revival, without the defects; but if this cannot be, send it - with all its defects. We must have the revival.”

Adam Clark said: “Nature will always, and Satan too, mingle themselves as far as they can, in the genuine work of the Spirit, in order to discredit and destroy it. Nevertheless in great revivals of religion, it is almost impossible to prevent wild-fire from getting in among the true fire.”

Dr. Seiss says: “Never, indeed, has there been a sowing of God on earth, but it has been oversown by Satan; or a growth for Christ, which the plantings of the wicked one did not mingle with and hinder. He who sets out to find a perfect church, in which there are no unworthy elements, and no disfigurations, proposes to himself a hopeless task.”


 2013/5/20 15:19Profile

Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK


Greg wrote: "Either way it is clear there have been over 100 conversions and it seems the Lord is working, we praise Him for this."

How can you make this statement that it is 'clear'? How can we possibly make a judgment that there have been 100 conversions! Surely only God knows and time will evidence if this the case or not, by lasting fruit.

The comment that Murrcolr posted about the connection to Rodney Howard Brown, et al should another warning of extreme caution about this supposed move.

What I don't quite understand is why many folk on here have immediately assumed this is a move of God, with some error mixed in. It could be the other way around. A false fire, but God may still touch some lives who are sincere in their search for Him.

I have watched a couple of the sermons by Pastor Richard (and maybe I picked the wrong ones), but what I heard was not a clear gospel message or preaching on sin and repentance, but a lot of joking (I mean constantly)and stories. My question would be, if there really is the awesome presence of God there, surely there would be a fear and reverence for God. You just could not joke your way through a sermon. I'm not against humour and the odd joke to make a point, but not stand up comedy! Were Duncan Campbell or Evan Roberts joking and flippant like a stand up comedian? I don't think so.


 2013/5/21 4:48Profile

Joined: 2010/4/17
Posts: 15


A decisive factor will probably be wether god tv are going to broadcast it!
"Nightly at 7.00 pm" or whatever, as if God will jump to our timetable....These revival efforts can so easily become like lourdes or Medugorje, must-do pilgrimage sites. I myself raced here there and everywhere to go to Nathan Morris's meetings 2 or 3 years ago, (well before Mobile started), but discovered, in reality it was a pointless excercise, better indeed to spend my time with my own Bible and in prayer (although of course this is the more demanding, less "glamorous" option....) than expect a preacher to do the short cuts for me and get me an anointing.

I dont think there is any mystery, doesnt God always respond to those who are broken, humble, finished, empty, devoid of pride, ambition or self interestedness? Doesnt He always respond to the preaching of the full on gospel of sin, hell, repentance, the Blood, regeneration etc, by speaking to sinners and being pleased to save thoise that are willing?
Someone somewhere, outside of the God tv/NAR axis has to speak up and confront the lying spirit that is behind decades of charismatic foolishness and deception.

 2013/5/21 7:18Profile

 Re: Move of God happening in South Wales!

For anyone desiring to make their own judgement or for a better understanding of things here are a few videos posted over 30 months which may reflect something of life at Victory Church. All of these videos are midweek meetings as opposed to Sunday sermons which are much more formal and aimed at teaching.

With regard to the Rodney Howard Brown so-called connection I have found the basis for it. In late 2011 Tod Bentley "ministered" in Cwmbran at the Two Locks Church. This had nothing to do with Victory Church. The only thing which I am still looking into is the reference by the pastor of the Two Locks Church that his "most anointed" members left to join the Victory Church. I still don't know if this was after or before the Visit by Tod Bentley et al. The significance of this may be obvious but I can state it. Bentley always and always makes a point of laying hands on everyone no matter, including little children so that he can "pass on" the fire. In short I am thinking about what prompted members of the Two Locks church to leave and whether they themselves were prayed for by Bentley before they left. There may have been a separation from this false prophet Bentley, nearly 18 months before this outpouring took place. Victory Church began in April 2010.. One thing is for certain the Two Locks Church is completely under a delusion and has become given over to signs and wonders.

See the link:

I would encourage anyone who has a mind to speak about this outpouring to exercise some wisdom altogether before following a discernment which in the end may prove to be false. And I don't mean that the outpouring is false either.

9th December 2010

13th January 2011
1st September 2012

29th March 2013

20th April 2013

Preached on the 10th April 2013 this is the start of the present outpouring.

This is a video produced in October 2012 which gives a brief back drop to the Victory Church Campus Ministry and their vision

The Lord knows. So does SermonIndex LOL. See link:

Edit Addition:

For clarification the reference to Two Locks Church, Cwmbran and Rodney Howard Brown was shared in the post by brother murrcoir earlier in the thread. It was not his comment but was taken from the blog of the Pastor of that Church seeking to have a part in this work of God.

Other comments being said....

Welsh Outpouring! Written by Pastor on May 9, 2013

Truth be told the move of God in Cwmbran right now is easily traced back to Rodney Howard Browne. The anointing went from Rodney to Randy Clark to Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship. We received the anointing from Christchurch in Cwmbran some eight years ago when they were hosting a speaker whose life had been transformed after he visited TACF. Everything then broke out with us in Two Locks Church. Then half a dozen of our anointed people started attending Victory Church in Cwmbran and now Victory Church are enjoying the same Holy Ghost visitation as well. The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another. LORD, we ask you for souls, more LORD.

 2013/5/21 7:45

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK


I watched the online stream last night and I can't fault the preaching last night...

But I was also watching carefully those who went out to get prayed for, there was a little old woman sitting in view of the camera, she went out for prayer for healing at the end of the service you see her sitting there were arms shaking uncontrollably and she looked distressed about it so much that the man next to her had to give her a hug...

So here we have a church that message that's preaching is good, but another group of Christins have came in that are attached to Tod Bentley's Fresh Fire, a outpouring has started with signs similar to Tod Bentley's fresh Fire/Toronto Blessing type..

Watch it on live stream... for yourself.

Edit spelling

Colin Murray

 2013/5/21 9:02Profile


I have been watching this unfold and I will be honest, I do not like this hand on the head and falling over. It seems to be a formula foreign to genuine revival, and more similar to Toronto blessing. The reason I do not care for it is for a couple of simple reasons, this kind of ministry is not found in Scripture and it puts the onus on the " anointed one," who is putting the hand on the head and shouting something to the effect of " fire."

I have no problems with people being " prayed" for and in the process a laying on of hands, but this is not what we see. This attempt at impartation has always been attractive to those who seek " the power," and who consider themselves anointed.

It would be good for one of the brothers in Britain to be able to go there and give a first hand account. I believe my cousin will be going, at my request, this coming weekend. I do know something of the Elim pentecostal church in Britian. I know that in Scotland, for the most part, Todd Bentley was completly embraced in Elim circles and this was indicative of a general lack of discernment. ..........bro Frank

 2013/5/21 9:32

Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.


My family & I are feeling saddened by the negativity now happening to my post and horrified with the comparisons to the Toronto blessing and Todd Bentley of all people!!
There is absolutely no comparison here!

To share a little of our history with you, my husband & I was deeply hurt by the Toronto outpouring years ago, my husband, who was a leader in our (then) church, and myself were the only couple that stood up for the truth of scripture and experienced such hatred that after a year we were asked to leave. This broke my husband's heart as he cared so deeply for our church and fought to keep the truth, we left deeply depressed and in complete shock at the hatred experienced. For the next ten years we were out of church as there wasn't another in our locality we could attend. The Pastor of my family church, which I had left when marrying my husband and moving, showed us such love and concern at the time. Even though we were not members (although my mum & dad were) he loved us and supported us so much and kept a link going. We are now happy back in that church and have moved back.

We asked the Lord to heal that gap of ten years in our family and to have no ill affect on our children, which God has done in an amazing way and is even like it had never happened!
Our children are strong with the Lord, our daughter even going this year on missions to Thailand and is having a huge effect on the locals in her job as a check out assistant, customers are starting to attend church.

About 5 years ago another storm enterd our lives as this Pastor who cared for us so much retired, and one of our own young men became our Pastor. Yet because this young Pastor was born and grew up in our church this caused a rift with the older folk who couldn't, or rather 'wouldn't' come under his leadership.
Folk left and a barrage of critism was aimed at our church, even though our retired Pastor was happy with him and is still with us.

Some folk visiting our house at the time would start this critism of our church but we would ask them not to do so in our home, as how could we expect our kids to be happy and flourish in a church that is being critised in our own home! Today we have outgrown the church building and meet in a school theatre and have a building project. The church has a lot of respect in the town and has a lot of input socially.

After moving back to my home town to be near man & dad, Victory Outreach Cwmbran came to visit our church as they do regularly, and brought a mini bus full of boys from one of their rehab homes that had given their lives to the Lord. There wasn't a dry eye as they shared testimonies and sang.

After they went out for lunch (as my parents were away on ministry and know Richard & Cwmbran Victory church) we were so honoured to be the home for the group to relax and have a time of sharing with us.
My husband & I were deeply impressed with how the lads were protected by the group leader (now himself a Pastor) and the bible knowledge they had already gained. They were not to take anything we said at face value but were encouraged to question us further on what we shared and to think for themselves if it agreed with scripture.

They meet regularly for bible study but every day scripture teaching and study is essential in the homes. Of course these sessions are not filmed so you won't see them on you tube!!

You say there is no teaching of holiness, sin, repentance but I can assure you there is a deep understanding of such matters in that church. How often do hear nowadays preaching on 'the power of the blood of Jesus'?? yet that is what was preached last week when our assistant Pastor & wife were there. Richard is not one to show off the work he does in that church to the world! He is very protective of the community. Richard is such a stickler for the truth of Scripture. He was asked by the government to remove scripture teaching from their rehab homes, which he point blank refused to do, saying that the scripture was the very foundation of these young people's rehabilitation as it was in his life too and is the only way to change lives. Because of his stand on refusing to drop scripture, he lost government funding but The Archbishop of Canterbury office stepped in to support.
Richard would not compromise on the word of God in order to keep his funding! We know God is blessing Richard and his commitment and stand. He is just as stunned with what is happening!

As I have shared in a previous post our assistant Pastor's wife told me this week that this is nothing at all like you see on TV - no funny business! The presence of God is so heavy that she has never ever experienced anything like this (she's also experienced Benny Hinn meetings!!) She and her husband were deeply moved by the presence of God and the level of repentance shown among those going forward - folk were breaking down sobbing during the meeting.
Please don't nit pick due to phraseolgy, wording, humour (our Welsh humour is unique to us! Richard being Welsh,knows how to reach the Welsh) Don't forget even Evan Roberts had his critics and folk set against him - you wouldn't believe it! Even Lewis Revival had Christians in Lewis praying against it.
Down through history, the Wesleys were kicked out of church and had to preach in fields and market places - William Booth treated badly by the church because he cared for the poor and homeless. We are horrified at these accounts in history, yet can end up being the same if not careful.
I say this to myself too, we fought against Toronto in our ex church and we paid a heavy price for the fight! Yet the Lord knows that my hubby & I certainly would not want to be guilty of fighting a genuine move, as many Christians have done in history, we are going to attend to witness this for ourselves and my hubby is praying that he meets with the real presence of God and will be healed of the effects of the heart break that he suffered 20 years ago due to Toronto.

Ceri Elaine

 2013/5/21 10:42Profile

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


How can you make this statement that it is 'clear'? How can we possibly make a judgment that there have been 100 conversions! Surely only God knows and time will evidence if this the case or not, by lasting fruit.

The Church has been "conditioned" to believe that the manifestation of revival is the number of conversions rather than an uncompromising holy life that is being presently tested.

I will take notice of a "revival" when I see the fruit of it. Liquor and porn businesses closing, church officials and city officials repenting, churches on opposite sides of the street becoming one, divorced christians, reconciling, etc, etc.

Revival is not revival if it is just about nickels, noses and numbers within the church walls and everything remains the same outside of them amongst the people of the town and the 3 churches on the other corners of the block.

My comments are general in nature and are not directed to what is happening in Wales. I have not seen any videos, but just wanted to make a comment on the nature of "revival".

There is a "revival" franchising today whose goal only seems to be to stir up the folks within the church to be better church-goers and tithers and bring their friends and families in. Almost like a multi-level marketing business.

I think if people saw true revival where entire towns were turned upside down for Christ and people truly started living holy lives, that many Christians (who are religious and worldly) would persecute the revival and say they are being too "extreme".

True revival would actually scare a lot of "church-goers" and they would not buy into it. Because it would mean they would have to give up their idols and come clean.

If large portions of the town's unbelievers did get saved, many of them would shine the light on so-called "Christians" that were cavorting with them (in darkness), yet going to church.

Ceri, if God is moving you don't have defend the movement of the Holy Spirit. This is just an insignificant forum and I would not let what is written here cause you to lose your peace or rest in God.


 2013/5/21 11:02Profile

Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


Whether what is happening is a work of God, the flesh, or the devil, I do not know.

What I do know is that we must be careful about the transformation that is currently happening, or in other words, the trajectory it is taking.

You see, let's assume that God really did heal a man on that first day. That would be wonderful! However, does that mean that God will continue healing while there is a buzz going on? I mean, really, why do we assume that God works best where there is a buzz? There was no buzz when that man was healed! (assuming he was really healed)

We should be careful, lest those with bad doctrine take over the "movement" which in the end will result in delusion due to the nonsense that goes under the name of a work of God.

Why do you think Jonathan Edwards called for discernment during the Great Awakening? Why do you think he didn't want things to take an ugly turn? It's because there is the real danger that enthusiasts will take over and turn people away from the central Christian faith.

If God is really moving powerfully, then GREAT! Just continue preaching the GOSPEL (not miracles), administering the sacraments, keeping ORDER in the Church (both during the assembly and in terms of the officers of the Church shepherding and disciplining the flock), and keep everything in proper proportions.

Otherwise, the result will be a perversion of the Christian faith, an emphasis on that which attracts but does not save.

The point is: Be careful of the trajectory that the "movement" is taking...

In Christ,

 2013/5/21 12:13Profile


Sister Ceri writes.........

"Yet the Lord knows that my hubby & I certainly would not want to be guilty of fighting a genuine move, as many Christians have done in history, we are going to attend to witness this for ourselves and my hubby is praying that he meets with the real presence of God and will be healed of the effects of the heart break that he suffered 20 years ago due to Toronto."

Amen sister, I look forward to your report...........bro Frank

 2013/5/21 12:13

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