"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| FREE CAR WASH FOR THE LIFETIME OF THE CAR - David Ravenhill|
Imagine a car dealership that provides every car buyer with a free car wash for as long as you own the car. You purchase a car and along with the required paperwork you are given a free car wash certificate. The dealer tells you that he has fully paid for all the car washes you will ever need, saying he believes that a clean car is the greatest way of advertising and promoting his dealership.
Several days later you innocently happen to drive down a muddy country road full of potholes and ruts. Later, you notice your car is covered with mud and decide to avail yourself of your free lifetime car wash. But before you have time to drive through the car wash, your friends inform you that you no longer have to go there. They tell you that your first car wash was all that was necessary. Any suggestion that you need another wash is not only wrong, but you have believed a lie. You try and reason with your friends and even show them your dirty car. They still refuse to acknowledge that the car needs washing even after seeing the condition of the car. They inform you that what the dealer really meant was that once the dealership had purchased the car wash for you, it would keep the car clean forever. They also argued that to suggest it needed washing again was an insult to the dealer and the dealership. Dont you realize, your friends tell you, when the dealer first paid for your car wash, it automatically washed it for life; all past, present and future dirt was washed away and therefore it never needs to be washed again.
Such logic would by anyones reasoning be considered imbecilic, ignorant or crazy to say the least. Obviously, what the dealer intended was that anytime you needed your car washed you could avail yourself of it because he had already paid for it in advance.
Thinking back on your conversation with the dealer, you recall him telling you that he has a personal hatred for dirty cars and that is why he paid for a lifetime of free washes to anyone who asked. He went on to say, that IF and not WHEN you happen to get your car dirty, the car wash would take care of it. He obviously never intended for us to drive around searching for dirty roads just so we could avail ourselves of the car wash. That he said would be abusive to the car wash program and an insult to his dealership.
In a similar way, the atoning work of Christ paid in full for ALL my sin. This however does not exclude my need of repentance nor does it give me license to sin as I please. For my friends to tell me otherwise is totally false and misleading. Sadly this is the logic behind the new hyper-grace message. The essence behind this false teaching is that all sins past, present, and future have already been atoned for and therefore there is no longer any need to repent. That, they say, would be tantamount to telling God you dont believe He has paid for all your sin.
This type of fuzzy theology falls apart for this reason. If repentance is acknowledging a sin that has already been forgiven, thereby making repentance unnecessary, then why do we tell people to repent the first time in order to be saved? If repentance is wrong following salvation, then using the same logic means repentance is wrong prior to salvation. The error here is that this type of teaching leads to ultimate reconciliation or universalism. Jesus paid for all sin; therefore, all are saved.
The fact is that the PROVISION for my cleansing was completed at the cross but the PROCESS of cleansing is conditional upon my repentance, and not before.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2013/5/16 9:42||Profile|
| 2013/5/16 13:06||Profile|
| Re: FREE CAR WASH FOR THE LIFETIME OF THE CAR - David Ravenhill|
Praise God! David Ravenhill has used a modern day parable to combat a false teaching in the body of Christ!!!!
Thank you for the son of Leonard for carrying on the torch for Christ.
| 2013/5/16 16:38|
| Re: FREE CAR WASH FOR THE LIFETIME OF THE CAR - David Ravenhill|
I would like to address several things mentioned in this article.
This however does not exclude my need of repentance nor does it give me license to sin as I please.
No one is saying that grace is a license to sin. Although that is an accusation that is often made against people who preach grace.
Sadly this is the logic behind the new hyper-grace message.
Hyper-grace is not a bad thing! It's the very term Paul used in Romans 5:20! Hyper grace or super abounding grace is the term used in the Bible!
This type of fuzzy theology falls apart for this reason.
We need to listen fully to what someone is saying before accusing them of fuzzy theology. Often preachers are quoted on 1 or 2 sentences while ignoring the whole message, thus leading to wrong conclusions.
If repentance is acknowledging a sin that has already been forgiven, thereby making repentance unnecessary, then why do we tell people to repent the first time in order to be saved? If repentance is wrong following salvation, then using the same logic means repentance is wrong prior to salvation. The error here is that this type of teaching leads to ultimate reconciliation or universalism. Jesus paid for all sin; therefore, all are saved.
This is easy to answer. We tell people to repent (change their mind) the first time because atonement and forgiveness is only ours when we put our faith in Christ! As far as not repenting after salvation I would assume that this is being said so that people don't think they will go to hell if they happened to die with one unconfessed or unrepented sin.
Hebrews 10:10 says "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Verse 14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
| 2013/5/16 22:16||Profile|
| Re: |
Andrew do you understand the false teaching the article is addressing? The writer is not speaking out against the teaching of New Testament grace that Paul articulates. The article is speaking out against a teaching of so called hyper grace that allows one to sin. This false teaching is being promoted by well known prosperity teachers such as Joseph Prince and Joel Olsteen.
The bottom line is you are covered by the blood and need not pursue holiness. Some in this movement go as far as to say when you sin God smiles at your sins. You need not confess and repent. This is what David Hill is speaking out against.
| 2013/5/17 8:34|
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1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
These false grace teaching(teachers) teaches that
we no longer need to confess our sins, and the verse quoted above is for the "gnostic unbelievers"
but that is not true,
John use the word "if we", "we" including himself-certainly for Christians. And the later part of the letter tells us:
1John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Another thing is this false teaching(or teachers) teaches that we no longer need to be conscious of sin but be Son conscious. That's a contradiction. The more you get shone by light the more that you will be aware of your dirt(current not the past for there is now no condemnation in Christ)-and that's a very good thing. It's very good thing to look on a mirror, because now it can easily be cleanse - by the grace of God(not just forgiveness but power to overcome).
the best sermon on grace I've heard is
Grace and the Power of the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen:
| 2013/5/17 11:35||Profile|
| Re: |
Bearmaster, I actually am pretty familiar with the teaching of both Joseph Prince and Joel Osteen.
This false teaching is being promoted by well known prosperity teachers such as Joseph Prince and Joel Olsteen.
Have you read Joseph Prince's book? The whole thing? With both of these men I hear people quote 1 or 2 sentences from them (sometimes not even accurately) and then proceed to label them false teachers. It is impossible to get an accurate representation of someone's beliefs from a few sentences or "sound bites." I used to think the same way as you and some others on this site do about these people. Then I actually read what they were saying. I also started watching the Lakewood services online (Joel Osteen's Church) and found he has a lot of other people preach at his church that fill in around his happy, uplifting messages. Joel's has his own style of preaching and we can't fault him that God has called him to be an encourager! Like I just said he has many other preach at his church so it's not just his style of message that is heard there. In fact Joel has said many times, to live according to God's word, do what it says, honor God with our conduct etc. He closes almost all of his tv broadcast with a call to get saved. He asks people if they died in the next few moments where would they spend eternity? In the prayers he leads people in one of the things he says is "I repent of my sins."
I've read a fair amount of attacks on these men here on sermonindex. It reminds me of the politcal attack ads. Where you get quotes taken out of context. In the last election here in my state there was a fierce battle for one of our senate seats. They did an investigation on the claims made in the ads. They found that it wasn't even close to the truth a lot of times. So called facts were skewed to make the other person seem horrible. The quotes I have read here on SI often times aren't direct quotes they are close but end up being changed to make the attacking author's point, and the other words of the people that are being attacked are conveniently left out!
For example, here is a direct quote from Joseph Prince's book, "Destined to Reign." Page 30, top of the page.
We all have the same goal of wanting people to live a life of victory over sin. Allow me to make this explicitly clear in black and white, so there is no doubt: I, Joseph Prince, am vehemently, completely, aggressively and irrevocably AGAINST SIN! Sin is evil. I do not condone sin. A lifestyle of sin only leads to defeat and destruction.
I would encourage people here, set aside your agendas, be open to the Spirit of God.
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13
| 2013/5/17 15:20||Profile|
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It is dangerous to preach this false gospel on people who are not even born-again, who don't even believe that they deserve the wrath of God.
Much of our error is error on emphasis. The fruits show what the seed is.
| 2013/5/17 22:31||Profile|
| Re: |
It is dangerous to preach this false gospel on people who are not even born-again, who don't even believe that they deserve the wrath of God. joliboy
Yes it is dangerous to preach eternal salvation to unbelievers. Yet why do we imagine that our day would be any different to the day in which Christ Himself preached? Most of the controversies which we endure and for which we are mocked, even as Christ Himself was mocked, have to do with a failure to comprehend the tares. Yet even in saying this it is impossible to make a distinction in many places between the wheat and the tares. Only the Lord can make a distinction. If for that reason we begin to lie against the truth in order to establish the truth we will not have served Christ well at all. There have been enough generations since the time of the apostles, in which an injunction to keep the law of God as a means of retaining eternal life has been taught, to make good the effect in our day by which preaching are we come to apostasy. If this seems to difficult a thing to accept then reject it out of hand. Nothing is going to change the day in which we live. We had better learn to walk in it and comprehend it ourselves. But if we arrive at the place where we ourselves begin to press believers into a legalistic righteousness then we ourselves will have to give an account for that and not some other man.
In reading these posts today and yesterday there has been only one thread of encouragement and it is found in this post by Greg.
This is the Father who revealed Himself to me and this is the One I serve. Those who foolishly press a wonderful and heart rending truth concerning the mercies of God and at the same time fail to comprehend the time in which they live, will no doubt not comprehended their error. Yet the truth concerning the everlasting compassion of God for those who are alive, of itself makes for a true desire to please the Father in heaven, and a good conscience with which to have confidence to meet Christ at His coming. Only a fool would comprehend that the Father is merciful and full of compassion and then neglect to take account of his own conduct. In this he would have no doubt failed to comprehend that Christ Himself is his judge. To Christ we will have to give an account. It is Christ come in His kingdom with the righteous demand of the whole law of God. It is a matter of the Kingdom and not a matter of eternity. If as some would have it this attitude of mine is false then I too am become an anti-christ. It is a simple as that. It cannot be many things. Either the salvation which is in Christ Jesus is eternal life or else it is not. Likewise the Kingdom is a matter of the righteous demand of the law of God in Christ Jesus.
| 2013/5/18 0:35|
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I mean the teaching with such thought such as "There is nothing you can do to make God love you more, There is nothing you can do to make God love you less." or "There is nothing you can do that will forfeit your salvation." is unbiblical.
I don't think why they teach that the old covenant law is not for today(though they teach tithing) then claim the old covenant promises which is mostly health and wealth.
when sin abounds, grace abounds more..
the law makes us know what sin is.
Hell's Best Kept secret by Ray Comfort is a good sermon on this.
commandments of Jesus are not just to be preach prior to conversion but after conversion as well.. Jesus' teachings are for the "blessed".
maybe some preaching of do's and dont's may lead to legalism but preaching against sin is not legalism...
that article is very encouraging..
Legalism is really dangerous..
but many are "happy sinners" they does not even have a desire to be delivered, they just don't want to go to Hell..
The Holy Spirit is The Comforter...
| 2013/5/18 12:06||Profile|