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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Pentecostals and Charismatics, what do make of this?

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Ceri
Member



Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.

 Re: Pentecostals and Charismatics, what do make of this?

Apparently a similar prophesy by Smith Wigglesworth was given over David Du Plessis in 1936 in South Africa and also in 1947 Wigglesworth was supposed to have prophesied at the UK Elim Conference "the biggest move of the Holy Spirit in the UK that the world has ever seen and will eclipse all former revivals including the Wesleyan & Welsh revival and will flow from the UK into Europe and into the ends of the earth". There is doubts over the authenticity of this prophesy too as he died in March 1947 - and there is also no record of it.
Sounds like someone is 'copycatting' to me!


_________________
Ceri Elaine

 2013/5/13 18:17Profile









 Re: Pentecostals and Charismatics, what do make of this?

This account comes from Lester Sumrall’s book – Pioneers of Faith. Sumrall relates how he met Smith Wigglesworth during the dark days of World War II and gives the following account: “… Shutting his eyes again, he said, ‘I see the greatest revival in the history of mankind coming to Planet earth, maybe as never before. And I see every form of disease healed. I see whole hospitals emptied with no one there. Even the doctors are running down the streets shouting.’ “He told me that there would be untold numbers of uncountable multitudes that would be saved. No man will say ‘so many, so many,’ because nobody will be able to count those who come to Jesus. No disease will be able to stand before God’s people… ‘It will be a worldwide situation, not local,’ he said, ‘a worldwide thrust of God’s power and God’s anointing upon mankind.’ “Then he opened his eyes and looked at me and said, ‘I will not see it, but you shall see it. The Lord says that I must go on to my reward, but that you will see the mighty works that He will do upon the earth in the last days.’ “… The idea that I would get to see this revival was almost overwhelming. And in the last decade or so, I believe we have seen this revival begin to sweep the earth. We have seen amazing moves of God in Africa… Recently, I was in China and met with the underground church. I was told there are at least forty-five million Full Gospel Christians in China. I discovered a depth of prayer and integrity there that I have not felt anywhere else in the world… So I believe we are seeing Wigglesworth’s prophecy begin to be fulfilled. We are seeing the first stages of it.” Dear friends, let us devote ourselves to prayer and fasting and practical steps of obedience so that if possible, we could be included by God as co-workers in the great revival move of the Spirit that Smith Wigglesworth saw in that vision.


I can find a few more like this as well!

Revelation appears to paint a different picture.

Revelation 9:20-21
Revelation 16:9-11

How does this compare to the opening passage of this alleged prophecy above?

 2013/5/13 18:24
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1391


 Re:

Hi Armkelly,Ceri,
Anything on Australia specifically?thats not on the catch the fire website,Yours Staff

 2013/5/13 20:21Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

thank you all for your responses

just letting you know I cut and pasted the whole article it was not any thing to do with me ,other then I live in Australia

I realise that sermon index indorses smiths wiggles worth

to be honest iv struggled a bit with him due to some of the things I read about him when he healed ,like striking people ,,,,,,but I don't want over react ,so i try to remain neutral ,,,I stumbled across the prophecy ,traced it back to this ministry in Australia ,,,,and I just wanted to hear what others think and weather they have ever herd of this prophecy,,,,,

I think I as many people would love to see a revival in my own country ,,,but I think my view is in wont be like this neither will in be like the one brother Andrew described In his recent post ,,,,but I apreacite all your feed back and opinions , I realy do ,,, blessings

 2013/5/14 5:08Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Hey Gary,

Another Aussie here! - I used to be based in Melbourne for many years, during which I attended a Charismatic church for several years.

I have heard Danny Nalliah speak on occasions. Without pronouncing a view on the newsletter you had shared, I'd like to share some thoughts on him. In short, his "prophetic" record has not been good.


During the Aussie 2007 Federal Election - as you would recall, the contest was between John Howard and Kevin Rudd. John Howard as the incumbent Prime Minister was not doing well in the polls. His deputy was Peter Costello, and it was expected that Costello would succeed Howard as Prime Minister should they win another term.

Danny Nalliah claimed that:

"The Lord told me to spend some personal time with Prime Minister John Howard and to prophetically prepare Federal Treasurer Peter Costello as the future prime minister of Australia. I will boldly declare that Prime Minister John Howard will be re-elected in the November election (if the Body of Christ unites in prayer and action) and pass the leadership onto Peter Costello sometime after."

The incident was reported in the papers - the particular article I read spoke of Danny Nalliah "anointing" Peter Costello as future prime minister. This description was drawn from his original letter, as he had likened himself to the prophet Samuel anointing David as the next king of Israel.

As we now know, Howard lost, Rudd won and Costello did not become PM. The "prophecy" did not pass the test.


In 2009, Victoria had a series of bushfires - bushfires are a regular occurrence during the summer season, but weather conditions for that year were particularly bad... This resulted in the highest death toll Australia has had for bushfires, and the incident was subsequently dubbed the "Black Saturday bushfires".

Danny Nalliah claimed that he had a dream in October 2008 - "I saw fire everywhere with flames burning very high and uncontrollably". The interpretation of the dream which he shared was that God had removed His "conditional protection" due to Victoria's new abortion laws which had been passed in 2008. The bushfires were thus God's judgement on Victoria.

This was widely publicized, and Danny Nalliah subsequently experienced a huge backlash even among the Christian community. My mum noticed that Christian radio had stopped airing his ministry's advertisements.

I'm not sure if Danny Nalliah has apologized or recanted his position for either episode. His "prophetic" record has been dismal, and given the wide media publicity his statements have received, it has been very damaging to the name of Christ.


Nonetheless, the Apostle Paul reminds us - "Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good."

When I was a young Christian, I thought it strange for Paul to suggest not to treat prophecies with contempt (as the KJV wording goes) - why would anyone despise prophecies from God?

My guess is that false prophecies were probably not unusual - people claiming to speak on behalf of God when they weren't. Paul reminds us not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and that there are indeed true prophets among the Lord's people.

 2013/5/14 11:54Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

btw Gary - if you're struggling with certain Pentecostal/Charismatic practices, I found these books to be helpful in sorting out my theology:

(i) A Biography of John Sung (Leslie Lyall)
(ii) The Diary of John Sung/The Journal Once Lost

I would suggest starting with the first book to get an overview of John Sung's life, this would make it easier to go through his diaries (which is quite thick, and they are only extracts!). His diaries shed light on many aspects of biblical theology and ministry practice.

One notable record in his diaries was his encounter with "hyper-charismatics". John Sung was accustomed to ministering powerfully in the Spirit, and had been blessed with many spiritual gifts. However, he met a group of people whose experience with the spiritual seemed different to his. This made John Sung deeply uncomfortable, and he was searching for an answer. He resolved the situation in a very interesting way - but I'll leave you to read about that account in his book =)


 2013/5/14 12:19Profile









 Re: Clarification

Hello Gary. Having posted as I did I felt a need to clarify and look into this business of Smith Wigglesworth prophecying end time revival. From what I can find there appears to be four principle times this happened. The fourth in 1947 in England at the Elim Conference, has been stated as a falsehood and I think that this must be so. The first was in Australia in the 1920's and this attends to your original post. The man who is called Pr Norm in the article is Norman Armstrong and this is a link to him preaching at the funeral of a friend. Norman went to be with the Lord on November 2011 aged 95 years. The second is David Du Plessis in 1937 who went to be with the Lord in January 1987. The third is claimed by Lester Sumrall as having taken place in the "dark days of World War II". Lester went to be with the Lord in April 1996. So the brother who outlived all of these men was Norman Armstrong. It was Norman Armstrong who is said to have passed the mantle to Daniel Nalliah in 2009.

This is Norman Armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w6CDnSsFrw

This is David Du Plessis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-pB6xtWqUE

As you will hear from the testimony there was no spoken words heard in this encounter with Smith Wiggeslworth. This isn't to say that he didn't speak but it does mean that David Du Plessis didn't hear him speak. In seeking to understand this I would encourage you to start listening carefully to what people say or bear witness to. It really is always the case that the substance of a thing is evident and present in the thing itself. This is true for a simple one line poster or comment or a complex book. It is true for a few words or a great testimony. We need to pay more attention ourselves and look and listen. Eyes to see and ears to hear. The point in the video which is relevant to this is 2:06 of 7:11. I would also like to point you to the semantic "he showed me visions".

This is Lester Sumrall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZ1-6QGzC8

The part dealing with Smith Wigglesworth is 7:48 of 46:04

As far as Daniel Nalliah is concerned who is said to have received this mantle of revival concerning Australia and the World, I have said just what I meant to say already.

As far as Smith Wigglesworth is concerned I can only acknowledge that he was clearly a great servant of Christ and laboured faithfully until the day he died peacefully in a meeting in in 1947. Apart from that what can I say. He is with the Lord we are hear and now. We cannot base our present calling upon another day unless the Lord raises up a remembrance in this day. I guess this is the point about Daniel Nalliah. For any one who feels a need to work these things out the falsehoods and the truths are plain to see if we really have a mind to look and trust the Lord.

In this I have discharged my conscience in the matter.

 2013/5/15 6:44
formidable
Member



Joined: 2004/7/3
Posts: 77
Perth, Australia

 Re:

i actually do know Danny & am very good friends with His PA,
i can tell you he is a humble man & is a voice in this nation that is speaking up, when most of the bigger churchs are concerned with tickling peoples ears & the great old self help,work on you & just ask God to bless everythin you do & get more money, cause thats what God wants for you.

he has a heart for this nation & fought for free speech when Muslims took him to court & a case which went on for 5 years,
he doesnt have loads of cash of drive a fancy car,
he has integrity, he doesnt mince his words,

as to bushfrie prophecies ok can see how that might be a bot off, but with all prophecy it does have conditions to it,
the Lord says if you will the i will do this
the body of Christ here in Australia, is so disjointed its terrible, oh how it grieves me & must Grieve God that to many people are building there own kingdoms & not wanting to dwell together in unity? & in unity is where brothers dwell God says HE Will command a blessing,

danny cops flack but i can tell you he will stand even when others will not.

as for should christians be in politics? well he has a rise up australia party, which is getting noticed by your average australian, why? cause the other partys are not listening & who knows if God has not raised up Danny as voice for this season in our nation? do you know he hasnt
why should Gay,athiest,communist,God hating people make our polices? why cant christians have a say in how our nation should be run?

as for flashy names is rise up flashy or is it the intent of vision they have? to see people rise up in our nation? rise up in prayer? rise up & take hold of God whatever the cost,
read his book, he has been through some fires & testing as anyone who wants to do something for the Lord will be put through,

as for healings, he isnt flashy in his prayers as far as i know, he has seen people raised from the dead & had a doctor confirm the last person who died, isnt that the gospel? preach it teach it, lay hands on the sick, cast out demons? jesus said it not me
as far as im concerned if its in the bible i want to see it, live it bring Glory to the our risen Lord,

gifts not for today good if thats what you believ, but me im going for God, i dont want churchianity i want Christ & the fellowship of the Holy Spirit,

whos not to say that smith wigglesworth didnt say this?
did david du plessis go on to do what was said?

judge the fruit now & see where it all goes,

all i can say is, i think he has integrity, he is bold & i can tell you he has had many times threats on his life for the sake of the Gospel & his passion fod jesus is encouraging.

have a couple of his dvds if anyone would like 1?

blessing in the Lord


_________________
scot

 2013/5/15 12:01Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

thanks Andrew ,and others for you responses ,im about to go to work so I will read more of what you posted later
blessings to all

brother gary

 2013/5/15 15:21Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

amrkelly et. al.

I have quite a few thoughts competing in my head right now, so I hope my two cents is cogent and not too scattered.

I have seen many men who have given "prophetic" words from time to time. Some were spot-on accurate, and some were not. But we are dealing with men here. I was born and raised among many who were close to some of the foundational men of 20th century pentecost. As a result I guess you could call me a pentecostal. I believe very strongly in the current working of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 12-14. I have seen quite a few miraculous and wonderful works of God among His people. I have also seen some error creep into the Pentecostal ranks from time to time. Men, being falible, have fallen for some of these errors. One error that is often prevalent is found in the modern day prophetic movement. Though there are some very Godly men and women who are part of this movement, I believe it is foundationally flawed. I have seen men and women to whom spiritual status was dependent on always getting and delivering a "prophetic word". As a result, they go about seeking always to prophesy and, unfortunately, making a lot of things up. Usually they do not even realize that what is coming from them is from their own soul rather than from the Spirit of God. I have also seen genuine men of God who walked close to God that unknowingly mixed the thoughts of their own souls with the words of God. It is part of being human and falible I think.

There is also the dynamic of perspective when dealing with true prophecy. Prophecy in the Old Testament was often cloaked in very figurative language. Much of the prophecy concerning the end times is so. A great revival in Australia may not be something that the average, unsaved person on the street of Melbourne would notice in comparison to world events, but might be something that the believers would say, "Wow, I have never seen salvation and miracles on this scale before."

Another thing I have notice that definitely comes into play here is the tendency of the body of Christ to grant status to men because of their accomplishments or their charisma. My wife and I were in a meeting in the central USA where a man who had status in the body was asked to minister. Frankly, what he said was flaky and VERY shaky Biblically. It did not edify, but rather brought confusion and discord. I wondered how many solid, mature men of God whose names are unknown could have filled that pulpit and caused the body to be strengthened, matured, and edified. The same is true of men who, it seems, always have a "word". It is also true of men through whom the power of God does flow in mighty ways. So we elevate Brother so-and-so's prophecy to a high level because he is Brother so-and-so. We so often elevate the man in our own hearts and minds and then are wounded or even harmed when this falible man fails in one point or another.

I thank God for man like Wigglesworth. He has been a great example of faith to me and reading his sermons and hearing about his life has greatly benefitted me. But, it is possible that he could be wrong in some point. After all, he was human. I will hold tightly to the more sure word of prophecy (the Bible) and I will judge all other prophecy against that. Where it cannot be judged, I will adopt a wait and see attitude. If the word pertains directly to me, and it is in accordance with scripture, and it bears witness with me, I will take Paul's advise to Timothy and use it to war a good warfare.

I won't hold a man sacred. I will respect him. I will respect his work. I will respect his God given position in the body. But I will remember that he is but a man.

I am not sure if my ramblings really get across what I am thinking about this topic. I hope so.


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Travis

 2013/5/15 15:57Profile





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