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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are terms like "fulltime" and "in the ministry" divisive?

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hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

I'm glad I waited a while before responding. I was getting pretty worked up yesterday. Not really excusable, but whenever you feel called to something it's frustrating when people SEEM to be giving up on it. It's like telling someone called to an Arab nation that God is calling Christians out of those countries because the people, as a whole, are too far gone for grace. To use another illustration, I keep picturing a broken down car. Its body, frame and tires are solid, but the engine is rusted and broken. Some on SI have stopped trying to fix the engine and have learned to ride a motorcycle. I feel led to fix the engine. The backseat is full of people who need to learn how to drive. I hope that makes sense.

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment because I fully understand what's going on in most churches. I spent the last year bouncing around different churches before finally finding a place. My wife would say she liked a church after one sermon and I'd just look at her and shake my head no. They seemed to be either social clubs with all grace and no accountability or legalistic.

One of my favorite sermons here on SI is Ten Shekels and a Shirt. It's such a relevant sermon today and it was spoken 50 years ago. In fact, the things he speaks about have become so ingrained that most wouldn't even realize he's talking to them. Like Paul Washer said, "I don't know what you're laughing at, I'm talking about you."

I'm not interested in redeeming a system. What I feel God calling me to is redeeming a people within a framework of churches. Instead of seeking to build from without, I'm seeking to build from within, or better put, to have Christ build from within.

If Christ is truly the focus, it doesn't matter whether we are in a house church, mega-church or somewhere in between. If Christ is our focus and we're relying on the Holy Spirit, God's will shall be done.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2013/5/8 10:07Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Hoohoou,

Brother, it seems to me that you are the one that has an issue. No one on SI has told you not to do what you are doing. No one has said that there are not good people within the established churches. You must follow Jesus and the Holy Spirit in all that you do and if you are, then why be concerned about what others are saying or doing, just simply follow the Lord. You write.....

" Some on SI have stopped trying to fix the engine and have learned to ride a motorcycle. I feel led to fix the engine. The backseat is full of people who need to learn how to drive."

The counter statement to that, if spoken in the same vein would be " some on SI are wrong to be in the established church and I am right to not be part of it." No one has said that. It is always this personalizing that causes the problems, that is why the saying of " play the ball and not the man," is always good advice.

If you believe that it is wrong to leave the established church and that the right and proper thing to do is to stay and try and fix it, then that is fine. When one is secure in their position, it is always easy to agree to disagree. One can never go wrong in following close to their Lord and He will lead and guide them by His Holy Spirit and then that one will give an account for his or her actions to the Lord, as it should be.............bro Frank

 2013/5/8 10:45









 Re:

And where did these terms "full tine" and "part time" ministry cone from? Indeed where does the term "ministry" come from? Where did the terms "clergy" and "laity" come from? Are these not nan made religious terms that come from a religious system that seeks to be self perpetuating?

Let me ask this question. What does it mean to be ordained? Who does the ordaining? Why must one go to seminary to be be useful in service to the king? And it goes on.

Religion is just as entrenched in America as it was in Jesus day. I remember in a thread started in this forum it was implied one needed seminary training to spread the gospel. It does make me wonder how Jesus ever built his church with the motley crew he recruited from the unschooled ordinary men and women of his day. But then it is unschooled, ordinary men and women who are spreading the gospel in persecuted lands.

Dear Jesus. To be an unschooled, ordinary saint to serve you.

Bearmaster.

 2013/5/8 13:28
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Frank, I don't know how much clearer I can say that we're both doing the same thing in different ways. Apparently, my illustration wasn't clear, but I stated the same thing a number of different ways. The motorcycle is simply a different vehicle going to the same place.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2013/5/8 14:17Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Bearmaster, what's interesting that happening now in some denominations is a reduced emphasis on seminary. Since I'm in the Nazarene denom. I'll use this as an example. There is now a big shift back to it's pentecostal roots. There are more ministers being ordained that have not gone to seminary than those who have. There's nothing wrong with education, but it can be cost prohibitive to some. This leaves many qualified men out of the loop.

Not sure why you would want to be unschooled. How you turn out after an education is up to you. But this isn't to say that someone who lacks a formal education is less qualified and capable than anyone else.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2013/5/8 14:22Profile









 Re:

Hi Hoohoou,

Well if we are both saying the same thing then praise the Lord brother :) ...............bro Frank

 2013/5/8 16:21









 Re: Houhou

The thrust of ny post is there is a professional religious system in American evangelicalism. My reference to the term "unschooled ordinary men" comes from the NIV account in Acts 4:13. In the account the Sanhedren saw Peter and John were unscooled ordinary men. But they saw the courage of these two men were seen from their relationship to Jesus. Not a theological education.

Bearmaster.

 2013/5/8 16:36
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi All again,
I think that the practical side of the use of these terms such as
-the proper working of the gifts-
-Motivation of the pew
-unity
-inhibiting revival
are the more important issues not whether you stay in or not.
You could have all of the above in a denomination.
However their is no argument I could except that states it is correct or should be excepted as being correct and biblical or that God has accepted this as a necessary evil.
It is my sincere belief that God is going to call time on for the want of a better word "system" that is involved in division.Hes has to,the plumbline is in his hand and it does not measure up
Yours Staff

 2013/5/8 21:06Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Bearmaster,

Well, you're absolutely right about the "professional religious system". It's undeniable. Of course not all who are in this system have been swallowed up by it, but it is there nonetheless.

Also, I see now what you were referring to about being unschooled. Pardon the misunderstanding.

Now, I will bow out of this discussion (I think we've, as least I have, worn it out), but let me end with a prayer request. I am entering the "professional religious system" and will be "clergy". I ask that if any of you think about me in the future that you lift me up in prayer that I can be in the system, but not of the system. I truly value honesty and "being real" and hate the thought of getting caught up in all the hoopla. I just wan to see God move in people's lives and see them grow to know our Father.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2013/5/8 22:58Profile









 Re:

Dear brother Hooohoou,

Just you preach the truth brother with love and a fire in your heart and you will never go wrong. I cannot guarantee you a peaceful life in or out of the system, but when you stand before the Lord you will know that you were never a hireling or a wolf.

Dear Father in heaven, in the mighty name of Jesus we just raise up our brother to you this evening and we pray that the Holy Spirit would and continue to fill his heart with a love for the Way... the Truth.... and the Life. And that he would passionately share the truth and the life with whomever you would have for him to share. We ask these things in the precious name of our Lord and Savior Jesus and we thank you Father that we can come before the throne with prayer and supplication and thanksgiving. Now let the peace of God that passes all understanding guard the heart and mind of my brother as he follows after you and trusts in you. In Jesus name we pray...............bro Frank

 2013/5/8 23:50





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