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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Evangelical Universalism

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DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Well now wait a minute. If on one hand Jesus is the Way to Salvation and on the other hand people who have never been heard the Gospel will be judged based on their works as a result of the law in their conscience, this give a wide open road to those who believe in evangelical universalism. It leaves the door open to ask why should the Gospel be preached if those who don't hear it will be judged by their own works? Does the Bible say how those works will be judged?

Walk me through this understanding because I want to give an answer to some of these people I have encountered with this nonsense but I also need complete understanding with it in order to do so.

(Am I really saying/asking this? lol)

John


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John

 2013/4/25 17:34Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1708


 Re:

Quote:

f on one hand Jesus is the Way to Salvation and on the other hand people who have never been heard the Gospel will be judged based on their works as a result of the law in their conscience, this give a wide open road to those who believe in evangelical universalism.



I am not sure what evangelical universalism is but what you have stated above is exactly true. Even if it is misleading people and makes them believe that salvation is possible without Jesus. This is exactly what Romans 2-14 states.

Romans 2-14:-For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So based this verse it is clear that Gentiles will be judged based on their conscience (moral laws). Acts 10 talks about Cornelius who was a gentile and said that he was God fearing. I seriously believe that if a person truly listens to his conscience then he will soon find out that he cannot meet God's standard. I was raised as a Hindu and I knew it very clearly that my life was not pleasing to God and it is not according to God's standard. The point I am trying to make is, it is impossible for someone to have their conscience absolutely clear before God on the day of Judgment. If they have then they will enter the kingdom but they cannot have it. For example everyone's conscience would have troubled when they lied the first time but gradually it would have faded.

Every human being knows that they have fallen short of their conscience but they don't know the solution. That is why they have come up with different religions. In Hinduism it is believed that taking a dip in river Ganga will clear their sins and set things right. All these mythologies came into picture because men believe that there is something wrong with them.

The only solution is Gospel and Jesus is the way. Cornelius was introduced to Peter who explained the Gospel to him. Luke 7:1 talks about the Roman Centurion who based on his Conscience judged himself as unworthy to receive Jesus, but Jesus praised him for his faith. I am sure he would have become a disciple when Salvation was open to Gentiles.

I hope this answers your question. I had the same question as yours and this is the best answer that I have come up so far. Mostly based on my personal quest for truth.


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Sreeram

 2013/4/25 18:31Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re: unregenerate men

Heaven is not a place for the unholy or profane. Rebellion took place one time in heaven. And, that was the LAST TIME it will ever happen.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5).

"nor unclean person".

JOHN 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Tim 2:19)

 2013/4/26 1:25Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5345
NC, USA

 Re:

sree wrote:

"I am not sure what evangelical universalism is"


That is the problem-- very few people do, nor will they take the time to look into it. It it is evident per the responses here that there is not a true understanding of what credible proponents of "universal reconciliation" believe.

Credible theologians who hold this position DO NOT believe there is no hell. But they DO believe that hell is for remediation and correction-- i.e. that God's punishments are always remedial in nature. They believe that there will be opportunity for post mortem repentance and reconciliation for each person, perhaps after eons of correction in hell.

"The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott is a fairly short book (and one of the more popular works on the subject) that sets forth the case for this position. You can read some chapters for free on his website.

I am not sure if Universal Reconciliation is truth, but i HOPE that it is. What I do NOT hope is that hell is a place of conscious eternal torment.


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Todd

 2013/4/26 8:28Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

pilgrim777

Your words are admirable but please explain how they bridge the gap for those who die and have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to what you have posted?

Understand that when I ask this question I do it simply seeking the balance between scripture and Holy Justice without our human element involved in it. How do you bridge the gap that Evangelical Universalism wants to employ with what you have posted?


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John

 2013/4/26 8:42Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1989
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Well now wait a minute. If on one hand Jesus is the Way to Salvation and on the other hand people who have never been heard the Gospel will be judged based on their works as a result of the law in their conscience, this give a wide open road to those who believe in evangelical universalism. It leaves the door open to ask why should the Gospel be preached if those who don't hear it will be judged by their own works? Does the Bible say how those works will be judged?



Paul is not saying that men will be judged based on the laws that their own conscience establishes. He is saying that the fact that they establish laws at all is evidence that they are aware of someone to whom they are accountable, or that they are aware that a higher law, specifically God, exists. So, in the end, no one can plead ignorance. No one can say, "But God, I did not know you existed."


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Travis

 2013/4/26 15:13Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1989
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Paul says they show the work of the Law in their hearts. The work of the law was one of condemnation. In Gal. 3 Paul says that the law was meant to conclude and condemn all men under sin. It revealed to us that we were sinful as Paul also states in Romans 7. So the fact that people establish laws to judge themselves as right or wrong, justified or condemned, shows that they understand that they are also sinners and do wrongly. The next obvious question would be to ask, against whom am I sinning? Some try to say, against society or my fellow man. But who determines what constitutes this sinning against my fellow man. When you do something I don't like, I could claim you sinned against me and you could claim you did not. So who mediates? Who is the judge? Ultimately we must point to God as the judge and acknowledge that we are, in reality, sinning against laws that come from a source that is outside of ourselves. So the fact that man creates these laws means that he acknowledges a God to whom he will be held accountable, and thus he is without excuse when he stands in judgement.


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Travis

 2013/4/26 15:24Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

deadn,

I don't pretend to have all the answers and I trust the Lord will judge according to His character. My point, was that no rebellious, unholy, blasphemous, unsubmitted person will be allowed in heaven.

Universalism presupposes that God converts everyone against their will, and that in itself does not line up with His character. If the Rebellious One was cast out of heaven, surely no rebellious ones will be let into heaven.

God is looking for a people who willingly turn away from everything that is not of Him, and turn towards Him. For those that never heard of Him, I leave them in His hand and don't pretend to know all the details about their hearts and how God will judge them. I would rather have Christ for my advocate than left to my own conscience (without Christ).

Pilgrim

 2013/4/26 23:40Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re: Evangelical Universalism

John, seems to me Romans 1 addresses this issue. God does reveal himself to people through his creation. How they respond to it is not a whole lot different then if they hear the word, as I understand it.

There are many testimonies of the LORD Jesus revealing himself to people apart from any activity of any Christians. I personally know of one such lady, an Indian from India. Then you have Muslims whom the LORD Jesus is appearing to in visions. These stories, testimonies are becoming common-place in areas where the gospel is restricted.

There is an old, old book titled "Sammy Morris" that details God calling a black boy in the depths of Africa a hundred years ago. This is an encouraging read. Am not sure if it is still in print, but I did find some on eBay.

My understanding on this issue...


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Sandra Miller

 2013/4/27 7:47Profile





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