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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Warren’s Ecumenical Call to Fast, Pray for Cardinals Seeking New Pope Called ‘Real Tragedy’

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ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Frank said, "This notion that Catholicism is a mere branch of Christianity flies in the face of the truth of Scripture..."

It's utterly impossible to look at the truth as revealed in Scripture, and then compare the Roman Catholic Church to that... and conclude they are anywhere close to being the same thing.

Even this whole extravaganza of electing a papa... and all those ancient buildings with all their fine art and impressive architecture... and all those impressive cardinals parading around in their fine hats and petticoats... and all the secrecy... and the white smoke and black smoke... Chapter and verse, please? Can't people see how deceptive this all is?

But no they can't. It's the mystery of iniquity at work. There's a very heavy veil over it all which hinders, restrains, people (even its own adherents) from seeing the truth. But when that restraint is lifted by a powerful operation of the Spirit of God (nothing less will do it), the truth will be seen, and the stark and ugly nakedness of this ancient organization called the Roman Catholic Church will be openly displayed.

(EDIT: But the mystery of iniquity is deeper than just the RCC, of course.)



_________________
Allan Halton

 2013/3/14 0:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
For the record I am an ex Catholic, born and raised in an Irish Catholic family in the West Coast of Scotland, my family being Catholics for hundreds of years if not all of their history. So it is always interesting to hear someone claim that Catholicism is a real Church. It is a clear sign , and I make no apologies for this, that those who say that are simply ignorant of the Catholic church and doctrine. Can I ask my brother from England who admittedly is not a Catholic, if he can explain to us here about the central doctrine of the Catholic church which stands as proud now as it always has, transubtansiation? This was typically the question, answered in-correctly, that would get you burned.

And Arm, what do you know of the belief of Mary as co-redemtrix ? Purgatory? The fact that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church unless one found Christ in ignorance of the Catholic teaching, then as soon as one is informed, that one must bow the knee to the Pope as the teaching authority of Christ on earth who speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals? To say nothing of one needing to sanctified in order to justified, and the only way for sanctification is through the sacraments. What, if any of this is truth ARM? On what grounds do you call the Catholic church a True church?



Well brother I may live in England but my Father was/is an Irish Roman Catholic and my mother was a Scottish Roman Catholic of Jewish lineage from the Isle of Sky. I was raised an English Catholic and so on. In fact on account of the Scottish, Irish and Jewish parts of my family I can say I am a real mongrel. Praise God for that.

As to whether I personally understand Roman Catholic Theological doctrines, the answer is yes I do. When I got saved my first point of contact was with a Roman Catholic Priest and he, at my own request gave me a Catholic Theological Typology of Roman Dogmas just for the pleasure of seeing me throw it in the bin. He wasn’t false and moreover he wasn’t comfortable in seeking to lead me into Roman Dogmas and heresies. In fact I would say he was actually restrained by the Holy Spirit from leading me astray. How was that possible? It was possible because despite his rank in the Roman Church as Monsignor, he was saved. I cant say why he remained in Rome I can only bear witness to the fact that when he prayed he uttered no blasphemies and spoke of the Father in heaven in such terms that my own spirit bore witness with his true faith. If I were to deny this fact I would be a hypocrite.

By God’ grace I was editor of a magazine called Outreach to Catholics along side of a brother named Martin Buckingham which reached Roman Catholics through the testimonies of former Catholic Priests, one of whom co-authored “Far From Rome Near To God” with Martin buckingham, which I was also blessed to help research. In short brother I have immersed myself in this subject for many many years, not as an heretic, but as one who regularly wept and grieved before God for the souls of Catholics. I have gone up to walsingham the English Catholic Shrine of “Our Lady of Walsingham” and openly rebuked bishops, priests and others who blatantly paraded about carrying their idols with such pride and in such defiance of the truth. Never once did I meet one man who I could say in my conscience was a true believer. When we preached we did not mince our words and we preached the full consequence of being led astray and leading astray. We did it without a bull horn, for God gave us a natural bull horn, even our mouths and we were not afraid to open it fully.

Why then do I say that the Roman Church is a true church? The answer is simply because unlike all other heretical cults, Rome, despite her false doctrines and blasphemies, has that which is central and necessary for a man or woman to believe in and to know the truth concerning Christ. What you focus on is not the truth brother. You focus on the lies. It is not lies which cause men to perish, it is a total absence of truth. I really don’t care to argue the point beyond saying that simple thing. I take my conscience from God and not from men. I have to give an account to God and not to men. I weep before God and call upon Him to release those who are inclined to righteous truth to come out of Rome before that hour when God Himself will permit Rome to be laid waste at its very heart, when many catholics will be scattered and become as chaff before the true enemies of the Gospel in that day. What priests, bishops, arch bishops, cardinals and popes do is of no concern to me. I know they are liars and I have no doubt about it. I would not hesitate to say it to every single one of them in conclave plainly and straight forwardly. Yet I cannot deny that in Rome there is sufficient light for anyone who desires to truly know God to come to that true knowledge. This makes Rome a true church, albeit an apostate one. It is not possible to be apostate unless you have first come to the apostles teaching. You cannot be that which you have not yet received. You cannot be fallen away from the apostles teaching unless you have the teaching of the apostles to fall away from.

Im not a protestant in some historical time warp, my concern is with the living and the reality of peoples lives today. When the day comes when the cry will be clearly heard, “come out of her my people” you can be certain that those coming out will be God’ people. Or how else can God speak of them “my people”. I don’t say that others should think as I think. Nor do I expect that too many have a very direct singular reason to think the way I do. Yet if we are to reach out to Roman Catholics, to the many who are not saved, it is because they are not yet saved, even as many who take the name of Christ in many reformed churches do not yet truly know Christ unto salvation. Apostasy began in the time of the apostles and it was already a spirit of anti-christ seeking to lead believers away from the true liberty of the gospel of grace entrusted to the apostles. It became Rome and it remains Rome. Yet many are her daughters, or how else is she called a mother of harlots if she is not indeed the mother of harlots. Yet even in these daughters of hers are lights and opportunities to be truly saved. If you insist on telling someone to leave their house before it catches fire don’t be surprised if they take offence. On the other hand when the time comes for her destruction you can be certain that those who are raised up for that day will by their countenance and speech prove to be a compelling instrument of God to the saving of many lives. It is the hour we live in and not the hour of another day which should concern us.

Apart from that brother we have no disagreement at all.

 2013/3/14 0:42









 Re:

AD writes.........

"It's utterly impossible to look at the truth as revealed in Scripture, and then compare the Roman Catholic Church to that... and conclude they are anywhere close to being the same thing."

Amen brother, and therin lies ARMkelly's problem. So brother, let me see if I can sum up what you just said. You can tell a Catholic that they are part of a true church ( whatever that means outside of the Body of Christ) yet they must leave it and be saved. Why be saved and leave a " true church?" It makes no sense brother, none at all. What exact teaching makes them a true church ARM? Is it the fact that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do they (edited because I wrote "you," did not want you to think that I was asking you the question ARM, for I know and can testify that you are wonderfully saved and a trophy of grace) believe in the same Jesus we believe in? When once I was simply sharing with a staunch Catholic about my personal relationship with Jesus, she announced after I got through that she did not know that Jesus. The Jesus she knew was the wafer she consumed on a Sunday morning. Now why was that brother? Because that is the central tenet of the Catholic faith that this wafer is actually Jesus. This is where Catholicism begins and ends. And this is truth? This makes it a true church? I am sorry brother, we will have to agree to disagree. My heart lies with brother ADs reply. This is the mystery of iniquity. Far from being a " true church," the Catholic church, in my opinion, is destined to lead the great whore church which will swallow up most of protestantism as well. This was her destiny, she was born for that. Does that mean that there are no believers within the Catholic church for whatever reason? No, I believe that there are. Yet, the notion that a priest who was genuinely saved and knew the real Jesus, yet was involved in the pagentery and wickedness of presenting Him as a piece of bread every week and keeping people in the darkness of their church which was leading them to hell, is a bizarre one. May the Lord forgive him if he was genuinely saved. When we come to Jesus, we give up our lives, and if we are living a life of sin, then that is turned away from , not embraced and indulged in every week, for any reason,unless one would preach that you have to be a drunkard to reach drunks? ..............bro Frank

 2013/3/14 10:19









 Re:

Quote:
Amen brother, and therin lies ARMkelly's problem. So brother, let me see if I can sum up what you just said. You can tell a Catholic that they are part of a true church ( whatever that means outside of the Body of Christ) yet they must leave it and be saved. Why be saved and leave a " true church?" It makes no sense brother, none at all. What exact teaching makes them a true church ARM? Is it the fact that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do they (edited because I wrote "you," did not want you to think that I was asking you the question ARM, for I know and can testify that you are wonderfully saved and a trophy of grace) believe in the same Jesus we believe in? When once I was simply sharing with a staunch Catholic about my personal relationship with Jesus, she announced after I got through that she did not know that Jesus. The Jesus she knew was the wafer she consumed on a Sunday morning. Now why was that brother? Because that is the central tenet of the Catholic faith that this wafer is actually Jesus. This is where Catholicism begins and ends. And this is truth? This makes it a true church? I am sorry brother, we will have to agree to disagree.



Bless you brother I had no idea I had a problem! No brother I didn’t say I could or would tell a catholic anything. I was speaking to you brother unless you missed that point. Leaving Rome won’t save anyone. Anymore than being in Rome makes certain that a person will perish. If it makes no sense its because you are not listening. You are imputing your own ideas onto me. What I say brother is what I mean. I don’t say what you say. I ask what you say or else simply quote you. Don’t change the words unless you accept that by doing so we end up talking about something else. I won’t be led by the nose by any man. So I speak plainly. You ought to do the same and that means don’t say I said something I didn’t say. As you yourself made the point in a recent post to romanchog, you don’t like to be misrepresented.

The Nicene Creed brother makes them a true church. Go and read it. Most born again believers haven’t even read it. If they did they would have to agree with it. Just imagine that someone reading the Nicene Creed and being saved. Do you want a list of testimonies of those in Rome who have read the Creed and been saved? Or perhaps you would like to read the testimony of a priest who was saved right in the middle of Mass. Just as he lifted the wafer god up to allow others to adore it, God said, hi, here I Am. What a shock that must have been! Perhaps you didn’t realise this but the vast majority of Roman Catholics have absolutely no comprehension of what transubstantiation actually means. Which is why they end up making a somewhat bemused or else prideful response to those who reject them out of hand and consign them to an eternity of suffering, in complete denial that the average Roman Catholic has a more accurate understanding of the central doctrines of life (albeit it dogmatically) than does the average born again believer (who has life). Sure there are other doctrines which make vain the truth, thats for sure. But the doctrines of life are there if anyone really has a desire to know God and Christ. Like I said brother if you only ever focus on dogma yourself and don’t look beyond legalism and comprehend none the condition of the person you are speaking with, as well as drawing out what they do understand, you will no doubt miss them all together.

You clearly have no comprehension as to what the body of Christ is, and what a church is. They are not the same. The distinction ought to a simple one, but no doubt that too will come down to a matter of opinion. My own preferred explanation is a simple one. Is it a field? Is there any soil with even a little nutrient in it? Are there any seeds to sown? Will any one plough and tend the field even a little? Is there any rain? Well, scatter the seeds, plough the field, water it and hey presto a filed full of wheat. Whatever is ruinous or corrupt the angels will winnow when the day comes. Who made you or I their judge?

One thing brother my name is Andrew. I have no idea who ARM is!

Yes I have met some of those “strong” catholics myself. A real devil’s mob to be sure. Dark, sultry, given to unpleasantness and almost always smelling of tallow and incense. A right mob for sure. I watched one such lovely lady listening to me preaching one day and saw no opposition in her at all. Until I finished and went to sit with her. I asked, are you a christian? She said no! I am a Roman Catholic! So I smiled and said, yes I know what you mean! At which point the distinction became clear to both of us. Afterwards I thought to myself, she was in no way opposed to the Gospel and yet she still had bonds which kept her from the true Gospel. Thats what a cult does to people. I have been involved in bringing down a number of such abusive situations over the years. Its alway astonishing how they work. First a believer, then a few more believers, then a few doctrines of theology just to help people keep on track. Then a few rules, after all without rules we would all be lost! Right! Then a name here and there and then a title and wow things just go mental. Heartache, scattering, oppression, control and falling away. A bit like the history of the Church really, especially the Roman Catholic Church. But no way limited to them. Im sure you know what I mean! Anyways thanks for the help brother.

 2013/3/14 16:27









 makes me want to lie on my face for a wee spell.

bro Frank,

ohhhhhhhh, this is truly, TRULY cause for grief.

In the Old Testament, when one reads, say Nehemiah, hearing of the dire condition of both the remnant in Jerusalem and of the state of the City...Nehemiah did what then?..

mourned, wept, fasted.

What about Daniel? what does he say, at the Leading of Yahweh? priests ...do what?

weep and wail between the porch and the altar?

because of?...the abomination that causes desolation.

something so foul, nasty and wicked, that the only response one can make is to WAIL...and WEEP!

wait though...men dont weep, right?

NO! Lets assemble...an army!....just like the "provos", look how that turned out.

This is just TERRIBLE...and what makes it WORSE, is exactly what you speak of.....protestantism being "swallowed up" by that scarlet whore "church".

Now this is not us, being "evil" men, speaking out of our "evil" minds, look what "leading luminaries" of protestantism, are saying...OR "tweeting"

it seems like Rick Warren couldnt sleep last night, coz:

Quote:
At 2:57 a.m., Warren sent out the following call to his over 900,000 followers on Twitter: “Join me today in fasting and prayer for the 115 Cardinals seeking God’s Will in a new leader.”



do you know what i feel as the Lord leads?

(let me put it in caps, not to "shout", but to highlight this Leading)

ITS TIME TO SEPERATE.

the seperation from rome happened centuries ago, so.....what do we seperate from?...how about the wicked fruit and ways and abuses of ecclesiastical darkness?

once robust, Christ centered denominations....Christ centered......Jesus at the Center....not a "country"...now these denominations...maybe they ordain "gay" males...or maybe they ordain "gay" females...or maybe they serve as the trojan horses for a war machine, or an empire, falling all over themselves to try and wrap a STATUE of Jesus in an American flag, or ANY flag.....lets see, that covers, the Lutherans, United Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, the UCC, the Baptists..(no not them!!!)the Assemblies of God...wait i have to stop! there are so MANY different denominations, i cant even keep track of them....didnt John 17 refer to the Church, that is the Body of Christ as One?

then why all these different denominations?

Brethern, i got to tell you all....as a Jew who follows Jesus..the Risen Messiah....i have NEVER understood, WHY the Body of Christ has been subjected to this 'slicing and dicing' into what seems to be COUNTLESS INSTITUTIONS.

why?

maybe i've gone insane? i'm speaking like a fool, am i not?

but why is this?....the roman institution i understand, becoz the devil needs a home base, somewhere to lay haunt, Constantine was satans man, he, at his father's, satan's urging, formed the "holy roman church".....utter darkness lay pall over that institution, but all the other "denominations"?

why?...is there ANYWHERE in Holy Scripture, that would be the Foundation for such a confused state of the BODY OF CHRIST?

i have an idea! Why dont we LOOK into Scripture and see what those first followers of Jesus Messiah, termed This Body:

could it be "The Way"?

anyone care to tell me i am wrong?...wrong headed?...wrong hearted?

isnt This Most Holy Faith....The Way?...isnt that how the beloved physician Luke recounted that in the Acts of the Apostles?

i have to stop writing now, i love you all with the Love of Jesus, i dont mean to be contentious, much blessing to all the saints at SI, may the Grace and Peace of the Lord Jesus Chrst be with your spirits, amen. neil

 2013/3/14 17:29









 Re:

Andrew, you write........

"You clearly have no comprehension as to what the body of Christ is, and what a church is."

"The Nicene Creed brother makes them a true church."

I always speak plainly brother. Let us agree to disagree.I see no possibility of fruit here and lobbing bombs at each other wont help. God bless you Andrew and may the Lord guide us both into all truth...........bro Frank

 2013/3/14 17:33









 Re: makes me want to lie on my face for a wee spell.

Thanks for your clear thinking Neil. You are right, much of it started with Constantine and went down hill from there. You are not insane, you are right on the money. Read John 17 and see how Jesus speaks directly to us who were still to come. He would pour out His glory, share His glory with those who would be one , be one, so that the world would know that the Father had sent Him and that the Father loves them. IN these words we find sanity..............bro Frank

 2013/3/14 17:40









 Re:

romanchog said:

" I learned Church history from Protestants so I did not learn about the persecution done by Protestants until fairly recently and felt that I had been lied to."

Jim says:

Revelation tells us of a mystery whore and her harlot daughters. This typifies the relationship between rome and protestantism. The daughters ran away in rebellion, but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They just started their own harlot churches where THEY could have the power, praise of men, and persecute others instead of being subjected to the same by rome.

We must get back to the new testament, get back to the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The church is not a building, organization, or even a place we go to. We are the church, the true saints. They are the harlot impostor of the bride of Jesus, whether they go by mothers maiden name (catholics) or the names of her harlot daughters (lutheran, etc).

Yet God has many people who are still in "that city". Come out from among them, be ye separate and clean says the Lord. Flee from Babylon, run for your lives, lest you receive of her plagues. Seek saints who will gather together on level ground as brothers and sisters who truly make up the body of Christ. Obey the simple pattern that is laid out in the NT, not in romes false teachings, or one of her harlot protestant daughters church doctrines. Don't trust deceptive words or mans traditions. We (protestant/evangelicals) must look at the word of God and learn to hate our traditions just as we would expect a mormon who claims to be a true believer to hate their false traditions (albeit mormonism is much worse).

There is a harlot church, led by a type of antichrist, and there are many harlot daughters who follow after her. In the midst of this their is a true bride by the grace of God and the Spirit of the Lord says COME. Come out from the one and come into the purity and reality of the other. You may be called a trouble maker, judgmental, and many things, but unlike saints of centuries past you most likely will get to keep your life for now. Many jews wanted Jesus killed because they were so devoted to their false traditions. The same spirit of religion is alive today in christendom and will gain more power until they once again kill, thinking that they do God a favor.

Submitted for edification and to encourage those whom the Spirit has already revealed these things to.

In Christ -Jim

 2013/3/14 19:17









 Re:

Jim writes.........

"Seek saints who will gather together on level ground as brothers in sisters who truly make up the body of Christ. Obey the simple pattern that is laid out in the NT, not in romes false teachings, or one of her harlot protestant daughters church doctrines. Don't trust deceptive words or mans traditions."

Amen brother. This is one of the reasons brother Greg started Gospel fellowships. This great whore church, when it fully comes to fruition and has swallowed up evangelicalism and all denominations, will once again be the the enemy of the Body of Christ. If in Catholic France or Poland or Mexico or an other Catholic country, then the Catholic church will take the lead. In America the evangelicals are dominant therefore when the whore church is fully come together, the evangelical denominations will take the lead, and by taking the lead I mean persecuting the saints.............bro Frank

 2013/3/14 19:27









 Re:

romnchog said:

"I know they are idolaters, but are we not all idolaters? "

sister, in a sense we should all be very humbled by areas of idolatry in our own hearts. Yet rome loves, defends, upholds, and promotes their idolatry. Like any sin a true saint will be brought to conviction and the Lord will deal with them in due season... yet romes entire religious structure is built upon idolatry and lies.

Would we go to a a religious institution whose foundational doctrines promoted homosexuals orgies, because after all, "arent we all sexually immoral?"

No mam, the word of God says that all idolaters will have their part in the lake of fire, and again - come out from among them, what fellowship has Christ with idols. If there is idolatry in us may the Lord purge it by His living waters. Yet babylons religion is built on these things, she refuses to repent of them, and when allowed murders those who refuse to bow to her idols.


God bless you in Christ Jesus. -Jim

 2013/3/14 19:41





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