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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Richard Dawkins Lecture- Should I attend?

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proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE:///if u want people outside the church 2 take u seriously u really need to take a course in logic or persuasive debate. we must be able to speak intelligently and intellectually and be able to articulate what we believe///


1 Corinthians 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


RE:////not come out with mindless statements like "exposing ur children to a lecture from an atheist is like taking them to an x-rated movie".////

A man that openly Hates and blasphemes God and whom incourages others to blaspheme God is just as Satanic and wicked and releases as much poison as any thing else on earth.




 2013/2/25 14:50Profile









 Re: Richard Dawkins Lecture- Should I attend?

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Richard Dawkins

From a previously well known compilation by Satan, entitled
"A pleasing and Purposeful Reason to Rebel".

 2013/2/25 15:01
romanchog
Member



Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 322


 Re:

RE:// its this kind of "logic" or argument that makes christians look idiotic.

I am so sorry that such a simple question has now become an object of name-calling and judgmentalism. Can we not learn to discuss things and disagree without these attitudes? Is this not grace itself?

I think proudpapa's concern is legitimate. While he did use an extreme example to make his point, the question he asks is relevant: do we really need our children to look at sin in order to know it? Psalm 1 does tell us not to even STAND in the path of sinners. The question then becomes for me, by taking my children to this lecture, am I standing in the path of sinners, or sitting in the seat of scoffers? If the answer were that clear, I would not be asking it.

As to other things that proudpapa has said: yes it is important for children to see the result of sin. While they have not seen a drunk or someone on drug withdrawal, they have unfortunately lived in their own flesh the result of sin as a result of poor choices that their parents have made. It is the reason I have 3 prodigals.

Rest assured that these children are not CURRENTLY undergoing a crisis of faith. They are well grounded in the word, in the requirement of repentance, dying to self, and following Christ. We learned our lesson after the first three went their own way and turned against us.

There is also the thought that all they really need to know is the Word and Christ, and the Holy Spirit will protect them from the ideas of the world. After all, God does not command us to teach our children the things of the world so that they can be ready, He tells us to teach them the Law (in our case the new covenant, the Gospel) day and night, when we rise, when we sit, when we walk, when we lay down. (Deut 6:7, 11:19). He tells us to command our children to be careful to observe all the words of the law. Deut 32:46.

So the question is, do they really need to listen to the world, to their thoughts, their ideas to be ready to live in this world? That is not what scripture teaches us. It teaches us to come out from among them and NOT listen to their philosophy.

(Obviously, this can be taken too far and lead to not teaching our children math, science, etc., which is not what I mean.)

I have heard several times that Paul studied/listened to the Greeks and that we should do so also. I don't think the Book of Acts would support that. I get the impression that when he got to Athens he was shocked at what he saw there, and it grieved him. If he was so educated in their beliefs, why would he be shocked. While it is true that he quotes one of their own philosophers/poets, I always thought this is something he learned while he was there talking to the people, and the Holy Spirit used it to reach the Greeks.

On a side note, I would never let my children study philosophy. We are warned repeatedly against the wisdom of this world. (see 1 Cor 1, for example.) In fact, it was our insistence that our three oldest children become wise in the things of philosophy and in thinking and logic that turned them away from Christ. Granted, we did not also give them the true gospel, because we did not know it yet. But spending too much time in the mind will not be conducive to a Christian life because it neglects the heart, the soul, and the strength with which we are also to love the Lord our God. Philosophy (as is psychology) is the doctrine of demons. If my children are to study philosophy ever it will have to be with that understanding.


_________________
Natalie

 2013/2/25 15:07Profile
romanchog
Member



Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 322


 Re:

amrkelley wrote: //“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”//


I have heard him say this. It was very distressing and disgusting to me when I heard MY GOD addressed in this manner. BUT: do we have a response to him and to others who will copy him? We MUST have a response and not just sit and be appalled. We know which scriptures he will use to support this statement. Do we know them well enough to show that he is a liar?


_________________
Natalie

 2013/2/25 15:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I have heard him say this. It was very distressing and disgusting to me when I heard MY GOD addressed in this manner. BUT: do we have a response to him and to others who will copy him? We MUST have a response and not just sit and be appalled. We know which scriptures he will use to support this statement. Do we know them well enough to show that he is a liar? romanchog



Absolutely sister. Nothing would give more joy than the thought of winning such a man to Christ if I were led to go and share with him. What a joy and a marvellous thing it would be to hear Richard Dawkins take those word back and to deny them before men and confess Christ. Now that would be inspirational. Is it not the same truth for all men? Where there may be a difference, is that very few other men actually make a career out of blaspheming God openly. Just a few moments ago I rather vainly put myself in the shoes of the interviewer listening to Richard quote those words from his book. I imagined myself shifting my chair a little further away and pulling a concerned face as I slowly caught his attention and then drew my eyes to heaven. He is smart enough to get the point and he also has a sense of humour as long as it flatters his intellect. There in lies his human weakness. He needs men. He wants to be liked, but he needs to be loved and truly loved with the love of Christ. He would not be able to handle a truly compassionate man or woman who wept for him. He can be saved.

 2013/2/25 15:42
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

I have heard him say this. It was very distressing and disgusting to me when I heard MY GOD addressed in this manner. BUT: do we have a response to him and to others who will copy him? We MUST have a response and not just sit and be appalled. We know which scriptures he will use to support this statement. Do we know them well enough to show that he is a liar?
_________

Do we need to? I ask because I wonder what is the point in arguing/debating with a person like this? JESUS never chased after anyone and forced them to see or hear. Did HE not also instruct the disciples to go to a place, share the good news, if it is received then praise GOD but if it is not then shake the dust from your feet and move on? I really don't know very much about the man mentioned but I have encountered those who want nothing more then to attack GOD, attack HIS children, and get attention for themselves in the process so why fight/debate with them? They don't really want an answer, they don't want to hear truth, they want to mock and drag others down with them, why be their audience?...I don't have to prove GOD to anybody, that was not the commission HE gives us right? HE said to go and share the good news and make disciples of all nations not get caught up in trying to prove a position or a point to someone. Pray for them to be sure.

As far as going I will just encourage you to look to the WORD, what does GOD say about it? Spend time in prayer what is GOD leading you to do?

I am seeking to learn to ask myself this one question in the things I do, "How will this____________(fill in the blank) cause me to grow in CHRIST and draw me nearer to HIM?" It has helped but I am still learning :)

I pray you will have clear direction and understanding as in all things I know FATHER cares about what you do and wants the very best for you.

God bless
maryjane

edit:I just wanted to add these were just some thoughts on my mind you don't need to feel like you have to answer or anything.

 2013/2/25 15:46Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I think proudpapa's concern is legitimate



I agree. Hopefully everyone reads my own contribution to this discussion topic as respectful dialogue. Parenting is a sober responsibility.

Thanks everyone!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2013/2/25 15:58Profile
romanchog
Member



Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 322


 Re:

maryjane said: //Do we need to? I ask because I wonder what is the point in arguing/debating with a person like this?//

I think we need to be able to answer these things, not because we need to debate with those who are like Richard Dawkins, who do not want to hear and be convinced. We need to know how to answer these things because there are others who are listening, often young people, who do not know where to stand. If such statements are left unchallenged these will simply assume that they are true and will therefore also embrace them.

In short, we must answer this for the sake of those who really doubt and need an answer.

Thank you MaryJane for your thoughts.


_________________
Natalie

 2013/2/25 16:29Profile
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

i would like to clarify that i did not say that we need to study other schools of thought or philosophies. however for sum christians they might do it so as to understand and be able to discuss and witness to unbelievers who are into that type of thing.

as 2 the scripture that proudpapa pasted concerning paul not coming with articulate speech, all one has 2 do is read romans or ephesians to understand that paul had extremely articulate speech. yes, his words were inspired by the holy spirit, but we all know that the holy spirit used the language and speech patterns of the writers of the bible. paul was extremely well educated, this is a fact. when we come off 2 the world as uneducated, stupid, ignorant or hillbilly-ish it only serves to strengthen the stereotypes that the world has of christians.

if we are mocked because we are stupid, or at least sound stupid and can not put together a sound argument for what we believe then we are not mocked becuz of christ, but becuz we are stupid. and that brings reproach upon the name of christ. christians ought 2 be well spoken and able 2 hold a conversation. we ought not 2 sound like a bumbling redneck.

thats all i was saying. as usual someone took what i said and embellished it and came up with sumthing different.

and yes, i dont capitalize my words on here and sumtimes use "texting" spelling, but trust me, i can articulate and write quite well. :-)

 2013/2/25 17:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
as 2 the scripture that proudpapa pasted concerning paul not coming with articulate speech, all one has 2 do is read romans or ephesians to understand that paul had extremely articulate speech. yes, his words were inspired by the holy spirit, but we all know that the holy spirit used the language and speech patterns of the writers of the bible. paul was extremely well educated, this is a fact. when we come off 2 the world as uneducated, stupid, ignorant or hillbilly-ish it only serves to strengthen the stereotypes that the world has of christians. skepticguy



Hello brother. Perhaps what proupapa was seeking to demonstrate with what he shared, was something of a difference between powerful and purposeful writing to the churches and personal humility and gentleness when present. The distinction of course has nothing to do with how we appear to unbelievers in the world, but it is a meaningful argument which proudpapa has made. There can be no doubt that when we are sharing with those who have the kind of education the apostle Paul had, that seeming childish or irrelevant arguments does make us look stupid. Im not sure there is anything we can really do about that. As far as the church goes however Paul addressed this problem of how he was perceived and the very reaction you drew attention to as well.

For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.” Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present. 2 Corinthians 10:10-11.

The obvious thing I can see in this saying of Paul is that he warns the Corinthians in his usual written boldness that whilst his speech and personal presence might have been unimpressive whilst with them his deeds would settle the matter. In short he was saying its not how impressive I am but how real the working of Christ is through me. That probably alarmed a few of the Corinthians. What a shame we don't have a third letter to the Corinthians to see what happened the next time Paul was in town!

This is a reality which we all have to face. I was faced with it just last night when I wanted to put some young upstart onto his bottom for resisting me to the point of rebellion. But as I was seeking to share something which was for the Lord' sake and not just mine or the young man' I was compelled to draw back and let him have his way. If face to face we want to see reality then we have to be prepared to be in weakness and fearful of the Lord other wise we could just knock them out and when they wake up, tell them how much we really love them! That would produce some very strange disciples for Christ. There is a time to resist wickedness with a strong arm, but it has to be the strong arm of the Lord and not a man. If looking and sounding like a fool for Christ is where reality lies then there it is. As for the relevance of what we say. Who knows what will witness to someone in the end. It could be absolutely anything at all.

 2013/2/25 18:00





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