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 Re: HEY PHARISEES PART DEUX!

There is a great tendency amongst some brethren to confuse a Pharisaic man and righteous authority. This is not surprising in one sense because the Pharisees of the scriptures were of course men in authority. Not imagined authority but real governmental authority. Indeed it was their authority in the end which pressed for the death of Christ before Pilate, albeit working in their “other” power which was a murderous religious spirit. There is also another facet to the personality of the biblical pharisee in that he also had the law and was in line with his priestly office required to administer the law. Jesus condemned the Pharisees on the grounds that they knew how to administer the law, but did not understand the Law Giver who also wanted to show mercy as well. Jesus also said to the Pharisees one time that they wanted to kill Him. To which claim they told Jesus He was mad. Then immediately went on to try and kill him. None of this however removes the need for order and godliness and a right presentation of Christ.

All of these threads of light show at least a broad outline of what the biblical Pharisee could be like. Their is no evidence that all of the Pharisees we like this in all parts and in fact there are scriptures which tell us plainly that many of the Pharisees secretly believed. We also know about Nicodemus & Gamaliel by name who clearly displayed a different kind of attitude. (John 3:1 & Acts 5:34).

The reason why I posted into the original OP “hey pharisees” was because I discerned a spirit of opposition to things which had been said in another thread and which were in part included in this “hey pharisees” thread also. The discussion has now turned to another OP “HEY PHARISEES PART DEUX” in which the same facet of understanding, which shares the same “mind” of concern, which brought about that previous discussion remains the root of it. Then it was about music and its effects on young believers particularly, now it is about “manifestations” in the meeting. All of this is just a rouse and has nothing whatsoever to do with accusing men of being Pharisees because they shrink back from worldly presentations or else disorderly presentations of Christ or the working of God.

As with all of these things the original intention is forgotten and then it reappears suddenly as a latter claim. So can anyone really be a pharisee today? If so who are they and what “marks” them out? The poster tried to answer this question by saying that the pharisee would reject Christ by rejecting anyone who didn’t come up to “their” standard as to what “kind” of person God might choose to use. Words were used which of themselves amounted to a curse on myself, though it is a small matter to me if anyone curses me, and then a full and sound answer given in a spirit of grace is utterly rejected out of hand. Well that is a small matter as well. What really does matter however is the way in which we deal with one another and who we accuse of being Pharisees, which is no small matter if it sows confusion and leads the young man or woman in particular to take a wrong understanding of righteous authority. Now the focus has become “the day of visitation”.

“Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation. Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. 1 Peter 2:12-17.”

This is the only new testament usage of the term “day of visitation” and it is clearly expressed as submitting to all in authority and not allowing the freedom we have in Christ to become a cause of stumbling which will result in the Lord being spoken against by those who slander us because we believe in Him. To that end the real issue is not that a person becomes a pharisee because they cannot accept a fleshy and disorderly presentation and administration of Christ, but rather that we ourselves resist fleshy and disorderly conduct. Becoming a pharisee if it is truly possible will give rise to a man whose murderous intentions will do more to set him apart, than any religious or outward claims to Godliness. No one who truly loves the Lord will be deceived by a pharisee. Even a little child can tell when they are being burdened and are weighed down. Yet the child will for all that still hold a right attitude and obey those in authority. When he is grown up the man can then come out from under such authority and set himself apart for the Lord by two’s or three’s just as the Spirit leads.

 2013/2/21 6:30
Sree
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It is not a religious spirit therefore to be discerning and not accept everything that is done in the Name of Christ but apart from the will of God or the truth of God. Modern meetings where there are extra-biblical manifestations, teaching emphasizing "receiving a blessing from God" would have seemed repugnant to the early Apostles. We are in a culture of what I can receive from God and not that we gather as God's saints to worship and consider this wonderful Lord we serve and who bought us with a great price.

Christ died to redeem us so we could walk as the Church, a holy people on this earth. Not so we could seek to be healed and to seek to heal others physically. Such things are a by-product of Christianity and not the prime-product.



Excellent point. Good response to a post that calls God Spirit of discernment as judgement. I believe that anyone who has the love of truth will never be deceived by such fake healing or fake manifestation of spirit.

One example is I saw a famous TV healer who was driving out demon from a women in a his healing meeting. The women was given mike to speak up (with demon speaking for her) and she was shouting in that mike and this man was asking questions to this demon. After some lengthy conversation the women falls down and the demon is leaving her. This scene was shown and the audience were clamping and praising God. I know very clearly that this is not the work of God. Do you know how?

When did Jesus even let a demon possessed person talk or have conversation with him? Forget about giving mike to this person. But there are millions who do not read their Bible and think that this is manifestation of spirit but am sorry they are deceived. Jesus rebuked the demons with authority and did not engage in conversation with them.

If we do not have this discernment and call those who have this discernment as Pharisee then who can protect us from such Mockers? Even devil can do miracles. Jesus said by fruit you will differentiate Good tree with evil tree and not by its gift.


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 2013/2/21 11:40Profile
Solomon101
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Good grief...one red herring after another...again.

I rarely visit the forums. Maybe once a week but did a few more times this week. I only expanded on the areas because Greg asked me specifically what I meant. As I hold both Greg and SI in high regard and respect I was happy to do so.

That being said this will be my last post on this thread, or any other, for a very long while.

I keep reading of "discernment" on the posts from a few folks. However, they have absolutely ZERO scripture that actually backs their thoughts or ideas. They have opinions...which they seem to believe are God's. Ultimately they proof text a verse or two that have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to actually say about the topic. If you do not agree with their opinion you are clearly "less spiritual" or "not discerning". It seems to me that it would take a lot of arrogance to label someone like that based on nothing more than my opinion and a few scripture proof texts that did not actually have anything to do with the subject. But that's just my thoughts. I will in fact show from scripture that they do not have God's discernment on this issue. I will not take the time to show the others but simply use one as an example.

The expressing of emotions in a corporate setting has been condemned in this thread. Specifically "jumping, leaping, and shouting" were among the things mentioned that were criticized. Do I think these have to happen - absolutely not. Do I think they well may happen..and do so at God's moving-absolutley yes. amrkelly and sree obviously do not agree with me and maintain it is fleshly at best..and quiet probably demonic according to sree. The problem with that is it shows their lack of scriptural knowledge and their unfamiliarity with power of God.

The apostles do not agree with them. In that case you are in great error to go against the Apostles judgement. They discern opposite of the Apostles in this case. Guess who is in error then.

By way of one simple example-

amrkelly and sree have both taken to speak badly of me.. very well.. nothing new under the sun...let scripture prevail.

They both condemned my expressions that in response to God's healing or delivering power folks may be seen "jumping, leaping, and shouting". They can't rejoice over the healing...they focus on a minor small side issues. That was exactly what I said the Pharisees did in the opening post...because they did in the scripture listed. Those Biblical pharisees and posts in this thread have taken the same position.

How did the Apostles respond to people ,"jumping, leaping, and shouting", in the assembly of people? Lets see...

And he (Peter) took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. 8 And leaping up he stood and began to walk, and entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God, Acts 3:7-9

He did this with enough fervency that we see a crowd soon gathered.

Well..if it was out of order certainly Peter or John would say so. Instead we read immediately that he was hanging onto Peter and John. Not only did they not rebuke him... they put him forward as an example of God's healing power in the name of Jesus and then presented the Gospel. Again, read the original "Hey Pharisees" thread. It details why these things happen..to draw the lost. More folks saved that day than at Pentecost according to Luke. But the pharisee spirit is just mad that the healed man was leaping, boisterously praising The Lord and not "orderly". Same thing amrkelly and sree are doing. Sigh....

amrkelly and sree have "discernment" 180 degrees opposite of Peter and John.
They have indicated that "jumping, leaping, and shouting" amongst the people is in error. The Apostles have indicated they are fine and dandy with it. Believe who you will given the two opposite opinions of The Apostles verses posters on this thread. I know who I trust.

I must also say that I am in severe doubt that they have ever actually listened to the messages stored on SI by the folks who actually have been used in renewal/revival that bore the fruit of repentance from sin, reformation of communities, and spiritual fire being born into the hearts of Christ's followers. The people who have actually been used in revival also
seem to disagree with them completely.

I would suggest listening to Duncan Campbell's messages and testimonies of the Hebrides revival, or J Edwin Orr, friend of Evan Roberts, sharing on the Welsh revival of 04. They disagree with sree and amrkelly completely.

sree and amrkelly - have you EVER read the people that have been used to usher in God's moving and revival? Wesley, Whitefield, Edwards, all disagree with you totally and completely. Many of the revivals in the earth of more recent times also disagree with you. They ALL take the track I proposed of judging by the fruit it produces and not on outward dress or manifestations. Those might or might not be there and are pretty irrelevant. It is the internal working and fruit born out in peoples lives that we judge by.. by people turning their hearts to God in full surrender to Him....judge by the fruit produced....well at least that was Christ's admonition....which I follow.

For whatever reason The Lord has allowed me to help lead three regional outpourings of revival. There was repentance from sin, many salvations, prodicals returned, restitutions were made, wrongs made right, marriages restored, families knit in love, missionaries sent, physical healings happened before our eyes, baptisms in the Spirit giving many power to be effective witnesses, and a plethera of other good and Godly fruit. If that fruit is evident I could not care less if folks jump, shout, run, or just sit quietly and contemplate the greatness of God.... because I can judge a tree by the fruit it produces.

amrkelly and sree ... guys you do not appear to be able to make make judgements based on the fruit of the tree... you are clearly judging simply by your opinions of what is outwardly seen. You will often miss the truth if you maintain that path...but its yours to walk if you choose to.

Perhaps if God were to allow you to lose your sight and become blind you would then be willing to receive ministry from someone you deemed less spiritual that you simply because they had a tattoo or loved to worship the Lord in a loud boisterous fashion. I suspect if your pride would allow you to receive prayer from them, and you were then healed of blindness, you might just do a little leaping and praising of God yourself and give no care whatsoever to the Pharisees criticizing you for being "out of order". Hmmm

Consider..where is the supernatural manifestation of God in your lives? Where is it? Are you honest enough to admit it is not there? Further, are you honest enough to get before God and ask why it is not... and make the changes necessary to see Him start actually showing up in undeniable power to confirm His Gospel and Word with signs following when you speak?

I now take my leave of this thread and SI forums. I may or may not return. It will be a very long time... if I ever do. That makes me sad in a way... but I have not the time or energy to contribute posts. These lengthy ones are only because I have great respect for Greg and what SI stands for.

amrkeely and sree..... I hope you choose wisely guys. I really do.

You can respond or not. Makes no difference to me as I will not be back to read it so I will never know.

Keep on straining at gnats and swallowing camels if that's what you want to keep doing. But I pray better more fruitful choices are made.

I am off to pray, push, labor, and believe for revival and awakening in a community where God is now sending the first rumblings of renewal.

Greg Gordon- As I stated, I am going to leave SI for a while..probably a very long while. Brother I respect you and this ministry so very, very much. It has often encouraged me deeply. I appreciate the heart and focus it has maintained. I am ever at your service in any way I can help you in particular, or the ministry of SI overall. I firmly believe that your ministry will become more and more vital as we approach days of judgement. You are here for such a time as this. I pray great blessings on you, the other moderators, and the ministry of SI.

Be blessed Greg! Fulfill your call with zeal and excellence. Many will need it in the days ahead.

Blessings.




 2013/2/21 17:53Profile
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 Re:

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Greg Gordon- As I stated, I am going to leave SI for a while..probably a very long while. Brother I respect you and this ministry so very, very much. It has often encouraged me deeply. I appreciate the heart and focus it has maintained. I am ever at your service in any way I can help you in particular, or the ministry of SI overall. I firmly believe that your ministry will become more and more vital as we approach days of judgement. You are here for such a time as this. I pray great blessings on you, the other moderators, and the ministry of SI.

Be blessed Greg! Fulfill your call with zeal and excellence. Many will need it in the days ahead.



Brother thank you for your kind words. One reason why brothers perhaps are not arguing with Scripture verses is to stay away from the Pharisatical approach to these things. But it is helpful to speak in a way that looks at the larger view of Scriptures and not just quoting random texts.

We can very plainly therefore understand that a day by day growth in Christ in discipleship and holiness is God's plan and not a spiritual experience that is sought in an outward form, though these can happen.


I found this article by Zac Poonen helpful:



Jesus and the apostles repeatedly warned that the last days would be characterized by widespread deception and a multitude of false prophets (Matt.24:3-5,11,24; 1 Tim.4:1) - and we have seen plenty of them in the last few decades.

Why are millions of Christians deceived by these false prophets and these counterfeit "revivals"? And why are so many preachers falling prey to immorality and greed?

Here are what I see to be some of the main causes:

1. Most Christians today are not aware of what the New Testament teaches, because they have not studied it carefully; and so they follow the teachings of their leaders and not the teachings of the New Testament.

2. Miracles (supernatural gifts) have become more important to them than their character (a supernatural life).

3. Material wealth has become more important to them than spiritual wealth.

4. They are unable to distinguish between soulish frenzy or psychological manipulation, and the genuine moving of the Holy Spirit; the cause again is ignorance of the New Testament.

5. They are unable to distinguish between psychosomatic healing (healing that comes by right attitudes of the mind), and supernatural healing in Jesus' Name.

6. Emotional excitement and strange physical manifestations have become more important to them than the inward joy of the Lord.

7. For the leaders, their ministry to people has become more important than their inner walk with God.

8. The approval of men has become more important to these leaders than the approval of God.

9. The number of people attending the meetings has become more important to these leaders than whether those people are totally committed to Christ.

10. Building their personal kingdoms and their financial empires has become more important to these leaders than building a local church and making themselves servants in that local church (Jeremiah 6:13).

All this is the VERY OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught. The opposite of Christ is called the "anti-Christ" in the New Testament. If Christians do not see this clearly, then when the Antichrist turns up on the world's stage, with his false signs and wonders (2 Thess.2:3-10), they too will blindly accept him. To be led by the Spirit of Christ is to have the very opposite spirit to that mentioned in the points above.

Here is a paraphrase of Jesus' words in Matthew 7:13-27 (read in the context of Matthew Chapters 5 to 7):

"Both the gate and the way to ETERNAL LIFE are very narrow - as I have just described (Matt. 5 to 7). But false prophets will come along and tell you that the gate and way are not narrow but easy and broad. Beware of them. You will be able to identify them easily by observing the fruit of their character: Do they live a life free from anger, free from lusting after women, free from the love of money and free from anxiously seeking after material wealth (as worldly people seek)? Do they preach against these things as I have done here? (Matt.5:21-32 and 6:24-34). These false prophets may exercise many supernatural gifts and do miracles and actually heal people in My Name, but I will still send them all to hell in the final day, because they did not know Me (as THE HOLY ONE) and they did not give up sin in their private lives (Matt.7:21-23). So if you want to build a church on a rock that will never shake or fall in time or eternity, be careful to do all that I have just spoken to you (Matt. 5 to 7) and teach your people to do all that I have commanded you too. Then I will be with you always and My authority will always back you (Matt.28:20, 18). But if you only hear what I say and don't do it, then what you build may look like a large and impressive church to men, but it will surely crumble and fall one day (Matt.7:25)."

How then shall we build an unshakeable church in these last days?

1. We must live the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5 to 7) and preach it constantly.

2. We must live in the new-covenant and not in the old-covenant. For this, we must know the difference between the two covenants clearly (2 Cor.3:6). We must also preach the new covenant.

When preachers fall into serious sin today, they justify themselves by (and find their comfort in) the examples of Old Testament saints who also fell into sin. And then they re-commence their ministry after a period of silence. They quote the examples of David who committed adultery, and Elijah who got depressed, and they say "But God still used them"! But they won't quote the example of Paul who lived in victory and purity until the end of his life.

What these preachers (and most Christians) have not seen is that the Old Testament saints are NOT our examples today. We have been given much more in this age of grace - and "to whom more is given, more is required" (Luke 12:48). Jesus is the Mediator of a NEW covenant and HE is our Example and the Author of our faith today - not David or Elijah. The distinction between the Old Testament saints (listed in Hebrews 11) and Jesus, is made very clear in Hebrews 12:1-4. But very few live in the reality of this. Very few have seen that "God has provided something BETTER for us" in the new covenant (Heb.11:40).

Any of us can fall in the way that many preachers have fallen, if we are not watchful and alert - for Satan is a cunning enemy. Our safety lies in obeying New Testament teaching exactly and in submitting to godly leadership. (And by "godly" leadership, I mean those who do not have even one of the wrong values listed in the ten points I mentioned earlier). If we learn from the mistakes of others, we can avoid making the same mistakes ourselves.

So let us keep our faces in the dust before the Lord at all times - for it is there that we will receive Divine revelation, as John did (Rev.1:17). If we humble ourselves, we will receive grace to be overcomers (1 Pet.5:5). And when the Holy Spirit shows us the truth in God's Word and the truth about ourselves, let us be totally honest and "love the truth, so as to be saved" from all sin. That way we will be protected by God Himself from all deception (2 Thess. 2:10,11). Amen.

from: http://www.readthegospel.com/step3.html


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 2013/2/21 18:03Profile
proudpapa
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 Re: HEY PHARISEES PART DEUX!

excerpts from Denny Kenaston : The Spirit of Law-And-The Spirit of Grace

The spirit of law is like a Pharisee. The spirit of grace is like Jesus.

The principles of law and the principles of grace have very different effects. If you are living by the principles of law, it will totally affect how you think about God. It will affect how you think about yourself. It will greatly affect how you relate to others.

1. With God

It will affect the way you think about God. If in your mind you’re thinking and relating in your Christian life after principles of law, that means you have to do something in order to please God. That will affect the way you look at God. Every one of us knows, if we stop and think about it, if you have to please God by the things you do, then if you don't do everything that you're supposed to do, you're not pleasing God, and thus you live under God's displeasure most of your life. To live under that sense of God's displeasure is not the will of God for a Christian! By the way, to live under the sense of God's displeasure is a false sense! It's a theology that we brought upon our own mind.

2. With Yourself

It will affect how you think about yourself. If you're living after the persuasion of the principles of law, then you have to perform, and if you don't perform, you're a failure, and if you're a failure, you'll begin to think like a failure, you'll feel like a failure, you'll make decisions like a failure, and you'll be a failure. That's the way it works.

The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different from each other. The one, if you carry it all the way to its end you'll have a Pharisee. And the other, if you carry it all the way to its end, you'll have a beautiful example of Jesus Christ upon this earth. Which one do we want? Do we want to be a Pharisee? Or do we want to be a beautiful example of Jesus Christ? The Pharisees were afraid of God. The Pharisees were proud of their attainments. They figured they were pleasing God by their attainments, and were proud of them. The Pharisees had very little influence on other people. On the other hand, our Lord Jesus Christ wasn't afraid of God, but He rested in the love of His Heavenly Father, throughout every day. He was filled with humility and meekness, rather than pride of attainment. And last of all, He was the most influential man that ever walked on the earth. Which one do we want?

3. With Others

It will greatly affect the way you relate to others. It will affect the way you raise your children. It will affect the way you relate to your spouse. It will affect the way you relate to your brothers and sisters in the Lord. It will also affect how you relate to a lost and dying world. We’ll see these as we go down several points of comparison between the spirit of law, and the spirit of grace. We’ll be able to see there is a great difference in the effects, or the influence, that we have on other people.

The Danger of Law


There is a danger of our hearts being established by law and not by grace. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:8-10) Don't let your heart be established in legal codes and rules, but rather let it be established in grace, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.


Fifteen Differences Between Law and Grace


Let us look at a few of these differences. I have fifteen of them, believe it or not. But I don’t plan to spend a long time on them, because I’d like you to get the principle of operating under law, and operating under grace. I want you to see the difference between the two.

1. The spirit of the law demands. It allows no excuse, it must be this way, and no other! You'll do this, and you have no choice, no excuse! This is the way it must be, this is the way you must do it. The spirit of grace encourages. It comes alongside and encourages you in the direction of holiness and righteousness. “Go this way! That's right! That’s good! Keep on going! Keep your heart open! Just keep going! This is the way to go.” One is the spirit of law; the other is the spirit of grace. They have a tremendous effect on how we relate to people, don’t they?

2. The law condemns. Condemnation is judgment. Condemnation is heavy. It brings the heart down low. Grace convicts, enlightens the heart. It is that still small voice, that sweet prompting of the Spirit of God inside of the heart of God's people. The gentle Spirit comes along side, and enlightens the heart: “You know, you shouldn’t have done that.”

Think of it, think of how the grace of God works in your life. You make a mistake, you say something out of sort, and it might be five minutes and all of a sudden you have that little quiet moment there by the kitchen sink or at your workbench and the grace of God says: “You shouldn't have done that.” But the spirit of law condemns: “That was wrong! You are wicked!” and all of those kind of things that go along with it.

If we are moving in the spirit of law, that’s going to have a very different effect than if we're moving in the spirit of grace. I believe that when we work with people, God would have us work like the Holy Spirit, not like the law. Rather than condemn, judge, and give feelings of failure and judgment, come along side and give a gentle encouragement as the gentle wooing of the Spirit of God.

3. The law brings bondage. The word bondage means just what is says: Bound. The spirit of law brings bondage, it binds, it hinders. If you're moving under the principals of law, you're probably failing in your Christian life. You probably try, but fail, and try, but fail, and try, but fail. But the spirit of grace brings liberty. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. That is, power to do God's will. Liberty: Emancipation Proclamation. You are free! You can do what you want to do now, you can do the will of God, you can serve the Lord, and you can have victory over your sin in your life! The spirit of grace gives liberty, freedom, or emancipation to do the will of God. The other brings bondage.

4. The spirit of law is never good enough. Did you ever feel that way? It’s never good enough. Well, that’s the spirit of the law. You always fail under the spirit of law. The principal of law is always never good enough. You always fell short of it. You maybe got it here, but you lost it here. You gained a little here, but you lost down here. But the spirit of grace is always excited by each step that is taken. The spirit of grace is acceptance, encouragement, praise. Often heard: “If you want to raise your children right, give them about 9 doses of praise, to every 1 dose of correction; then another 9 doses of praise, and then 1 dose of correction.” Why? Because the spirit of grace is an encourager, it’s always excited by each step that is gained. When you take even a baby step in your Christian life, the grace of God is right there to say, “That's good! That's right! You're going the right way! Keep on going! Don't quit now! Keep on going!” But the spirit of law, when you take one step in the right direction is right there to say, “That's not good enough. You could've done better than that. Why didn't you do it this way? What about your motives?” The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different one from another.

5. The spirit of law: Curses. You’ve failed. Judgment is coming! There's a payment due for that which you did wrong! You failed! But the spirit of grace blesses, and shows the way to victory, even in total failure. The spirit of grace comes along and says, “There's a way out! Get up! God will help you! Keep on going!” Ah, but the spirit of the law comes along side of one who fell and curses, and brings judgment, and tries to make the load heavier on top of them. Big difference between the two.

6. The spirit of law is critical, always finding something wrong. It’s a little bit like “never good enough,” but I think it’s worthy of a point in itself. The spirit of law is critical. It’s always finding something wrong. But the spirit of grace gives the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt? I thought of these verses over in 1 Corinthians 13 where it’s giving a definition of love, and it says of love (among other things): “Love hopeth all things, and believeth all things.” Love gives the benefit of the doubt. Love believes in the other. Love hopes the best of the other. The spirit of grace gives the benefit of the doubt, rather than looking for something wrong, trying to find something to put a finger on it, and being critical. If the grace of God is stirring in the heart of an individual, the first response will be, “Oh, there must be some other explanation,” or “Surely, there must have been a reason for that.” Wouldn't you like to have the benefit of the doubt? So would your brother, so would your sister, so would your children, so would your wife or husband! Wouldn't you like to have the benefit of the doubt? The spirit of law is critical, always finding something wrong.

7. The spirit of law remembers sin again, and again, and again. Just like in the Old Testament, under the law, they would offer their sacrifice on the Day of Atonement, but a year later they'd have to come back again, and offer it again, and a year later they came back, and offered it again. The spirit of law remembers sin. But the spirit of grace forgets it. “What was that? I don't even remember! What was it you did? I didn’t even remember it.” The spirit of grace forgets! The spirit of law remembers it, reminds you, reminds you again, reminds you again, and again, and again, and again, and again. The grace of God just forgets it, buried in the deepest sea. Separated as far as the east is from the west, so are my sins separated from me.

8. The spirit of law exposes sin, and then leaves you there. That's all the law could ever do. But the spirit of grace comes along side, and forgives and covers, where we're willing to deal with it. The grace of God will come along side and encourage you to repent, to be forgiven, and to cover it, so that it is gone, so nobody else finds out about it.

9. The spirit of law is rejection. And the spirit of grace is acceptance. Law drives you away. It will drive you away from God, it will drive you away from people, and it will make people want to run away from you. They won't want to be around you. The spirit of law is rejection. But the spirit of grace is acceptance. It says: “Come! Come to God! Come the way you are! Come and be forgiven! Come and be cleansed!”

Probably the greatest motivation of the growth in our Christian life comes from the acceptance that we have of the Heavenly Father, is it not so? I don't know of anything that motivates me more to go on in my Christian life than to know that God accepts me right where I am. I don't mean God accepts sin! But God accepts me right where I am. If I'm clear in my heart, God accepts me. Sure, maybe 6 months from now, He'll begin to show me something else I need to deal with, and I'll see it. But all those 6 months, God was loving me! He was accepting me! He was blessing me! He was encouraging me! That very acceptance caused me to have my heart open, so God could minister to me about another need in my life. The spirit of law makes you want to run away from God, but the spirit of grace makes you want to run to God.

10. The spirit of the law tends to be exclusivist. The spirit of grace is free to all! Hallelujah. “Red, brown, yellow, black and white, they're all precious in His sight!” But not so with law. The principals of law, and those who live after the principals of law, they tend toward being a sect, or they tend toward being an individualist. “This is how I see it, this is the way it’s going to be, and I don’t care if I have to be by myself, this is the way we’re going to do it.” It’s not that way with the spirit of grace. Rather it says: “Others, Lord, yes others. Let this my motto be.” Quite a difference between the two of those isn’t it?

11. The spirit of law has no mercy. When you have failed under the spirit of law, there is no mercy. But under the spirit of grace: there’s complete mercy. Release! Forgiveness! Encouragement! Acceptance! Total mercy through the blood of Jesus Christ. Total mercy compared to no mercy, no forgiveness. The spirit of law and the spirit of grace are very different.

12. Under the spirit of law the highest goal is performance. Under the spirit of grace the highest goal is a relationship. The one: performance. The other: relationship. There is a big difference between the two of those! If we are living our lives to perform, and we’re basing our acceptance on performance, when we don’t measure up we don’t feel God’s acceptance. Or if we base other’s acceptance on performance, when they don’t measure up, we don’t accept them. Because the highest goal is how you perform. Not so with the spirit of grace. With the spirit of grace the highest goal is relationship. O Lord, help us to see that one.

As I pondered this message, I had to think of many of the plain churches, and how they are so much on the performance side. If you come among them and you don’t look quite right, or you say “kids” instead of “children,” or a few things like that, there is this silent, mysterious wall that comes up. It comes up because of the theology of performance, and you didn’t perform right so things don’t go right. But let the grace of God come over our hearts as individuals, and as a church with relationship as the highest goal. Relationship with the God of Heaven, relationship with God’s people, and relationship with a lost and dying world out there!

There is a big difference between the spirit of law and the spirit of grace if you come and visit a church like that! The one you’ll go away wondering what happened, not feeling accepted. But the other you’ll go away saying, “They loved me! They accepted me just the way I am! I want to go back again! There’s something magnetic about those people!” I tell you what it is: it’s magnetic because it’s like God. That’s exactly the way God is with every one of us. God wants a relationship with us! That’s number one! He’ll walk with us when we have long hair! And He’ll walk with us before we get rid of our cigarettes! He’ll walk with us when we’re failing in this area. He’ll walk with us when we’re not as meek and quiet as we ought to be! And He’ll walk with us when we’re not as modest as we ought to be! Because number one on God’s list is a relationship!

We have to be the same way, because it’s godliness to be like God. Amen? So it’s godly to accept somebody right where they are. It’s godly to come up and put your arm around some fellow who has long hair who’s born again for only 2 weeks. It’s godly to come up and put your arm around him and bless him, and encourage him, and accept him, and love him. It’s God-like to do that. In the law, the highest goal is performance. We all come up with our own levels of performance, “You had better measure up with my level of performance...”

I had to think this one comes pretty close to home when you begin to ponder our children. I think we need to have some performance in our minds, I am not against that. But let number one be relationship. I don’t know anything that motivates a child to do what Mama and Papa say more than a sweet relationship with Mama and Papa! Nothing! But oh, the burden of a little child whose father and mother move under the principals of law, and sets up the rules of performance, and withdraw their acceptance, and their blessing, and their encouragement when the performance isn’t what it ought to be. Poor child. That child’s view of God will be very mixed up.

13. The spirit of law tends to details. The spirit of grace tends to flexibility. What do I mean by that? Well, I guess a good way to put it is: The Letter of the Law vs. The Spirit of the Law. You know letter of the law. We can follow the Pharisees, and study Jewish history, and it doesn’t take us long to find out what the spirit of law does if you leave it by its self. It will make up 5,000 Sabbath rules over the course of about 200-300 years, of things you should do and shouldn’t do. It’ll make a thick book to read so you can learn how to behave on the Sabbath! But in the spirit of grace is the principal, and in principal is flexibility. There is a big difference between the two of those. Law tends to details. You’ll do it this way, down to the detail. You’ll wear these, you’ll part your hair here, you’ll wear this kind of covering, you’ll wear black shoes and only black shoes. The principals of law tend toward details, but the spirit of grace, or the principals of grace, tends toward flexibility. There is flexibility on how it’s lived out.

14. The spirit of law tends to be negative. The spirit of grace tends to be positive. If you’re one who struggles with being negative I would encourage you to take a study of the Gospels and study the Pharisees. Do a study on the Pharisees in light of this whole matter of negative, doubtful, unbelief. You’ll find an answer to your need. Because the principal of law tends toward the negative, that’s just the way it is. Because you can never measure up, and there’s no faith where there’s law. They can’t dwell together! Where there’s a spirit of grace, there’s this positive, faith-filled, encouraged, up-lifted look toward the God of Heaven, trusting Him in the circumstances of life.

15. And last of all, we said it already but I think its worth making it a point. The spirit of law is like a Pharisee. The spirit of grace is like Jesus. Consider this: the Law creates rebellion, stirs up the flesh, and drains spiritual life. I don’t know how many times a brother or a sister who has been born again—I mean one of those fresh new births, when they’re about a month old in the faith—go back to their old church, sit in the service, listen to the message, and when they get out they feel like they need to go to church because all the life has been drained out of them. That is what law does. Read it there in Romans 7. It’s supposed to! God gave it so that it would create rebellion, so it would stir up the flesh, so that sin would be revived, so we could see our evil condition. But brothers and sisters, if we’re in the grace of God, if we’re washed in the Blood of Jesus, if we’re no longer walking after the flesh but after the Spirit, we should have no part with any of that which the law does, but rather the spirit of grace working in our heart to produce a holy life. I know that we’d all have to agree, that the end result of grace is always higher than the end result of law—always! It will always be higher; it will always reach higher than law.

Which Spirit are You Living In?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=23603

audio
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/scr_index.php?act=topicSermons&topic=Spirit%20Of%20Grace&page=0




 2013/2/21 19:45Profile









 Re: HEY PHARISEES PART DEUX!

In a separate post today brother,

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=48403&forum=36&0

I included the following scripture precisely to address this claim of yours and as a way to show you that your comments about the actual Pharisees were valid. Clearly in this OP as well as “hey pharisees” as well as “The Day of Visitation, the Pharisees and the People of Israel (above link) no mention is made by me as to the issue of shouting, jumping and so on. Here is part of the scripture I shared “As soon as He was approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, shouting: “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord; Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!” That just about sums up the rational part of your original post. However, your post also included a prayer and in that prayer you asked God very clearly a number of things. These included teaching “us” not to be pharisees by “judging” things as they are outwardly measured, but learning to see the Holy Spirit moving in “whosoever” regardless of their “outward” appearance. It all sound wonderful. The problem is however that I recall another post in which you made some similar assertions about Mylon Lefevre.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=48155&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0

I answered those as follows:

Quote:
Solomon has posted them (the lyrics of Crack the Skies by Mylon) and they do speak for themselves. They are narcissistic, introspective and reflect how a man who knows the truth about Christ death for sin, speaks when he is so fleshy that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge his own sinfulness to the point of making a presentation of Christ which is truly edifying and uplifting of Christ Himself, turning the hearer away from men and unto Christ. This is the only true ministry. All the rest is vanity. Which is why its dangerous to young people who are in any event inclined to fleshy lusts of youthfulness and need a better and more substantial example than these “song” words expressed.



I realise that this like most of what I share is plain speaking and that this can easily give rise to offence and misunderstanding. There was a mild rebuke given by Greg at the end of the post on “Christian Rock Music” before the thread was locked. I didn’t miss it or misunderstand my own directness either. I am not a pastor, an elder or a teacher and I am not called to tiptoe around things but to state them plainly. I have been this way from the very first and have been rejected many times as a consequence of it, even to the point of brethren scheming against me for harm. Something which they have managed to do on several occasions. I don’t believe that what has passed between us falls into this category at all. So please accept my apologies for offending you Solomon. It would be hypocritical of me to say that I don’t know what I am doing when I write as I do. Quiet the reverse as a matter of reality. My words cannot be mistaken for anything other than what is evident in them. There is also another and even more purposeful intention as well, but that is best left to the Holy Spirit to reveal or else not. To that end I am always willing to obey any leading of the moderators to desists from posting on this site. What I cannot do is think like a pastor or an elder or a teacher. As for living under the Law I do not, neither do I vainly imagine that a few comments about what constitutes a pharisee, be it of Kenny Denaston or yourself will trick me into thinking that I don't understand what a true pharisee really is or the fact that in the near future we will all meet one up close and personal and will find that a legalistic attitude will be the very least of his attributes. Rather his murderous inclinations and intentions will set him apart very well as it did with the Pharisees in the Lord' day.

Perhaps brother we all need to accept that our contributions here will have different effects and outcomes and learn not to take things personally even when we are addressed personally. It all adds up brother if we stop counting on our fingers and toes and start relying on the gift of life we have been given to comprehend things as they are and not necessarily as we hope or else imagine them to be. Put simply nothing I have shared here or for that matter in any other thread I have ever posted into has had anything to do with jumping or shouting in praise of the Lord’ name. I rather enjoy those things and especially when I see it coming from younger brethren who have a clear love for God. But this is a red herring or to use my own expression previously, it is a rouse. Your original post brother wasn’t anything to do with jumping or shouting it was to do with calling people pharisees. Who these people are is defined by your own words in the posts “hey pharisees”, and took the form of a prayer of “inclusive” brethren who ought not to be judged at all, lest you become a pharisee by such judgement.

 2013/2/21 20:05
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


  amrkelly

Hi amrkelly

amrkelly wrote /// As for living under the Law I do not, neither do I vainly imagine that a few comments about what constitutes a pharisee, be it of Kenny Denaston or yourself will trick me into thinking that I don't understand what a true pharisee really is///

I find this statement very disturbing and causes me to examine my own heart and question myself rather their was any malice behind my posting of the excerpts.

I had thought about posting it in the other thread, whenever I hear anything about the pharisee spirit I am reminded of this sermon, It has had a great impact on my life and it is one that I often refer back to as I personaly struggle with finding myself falling back under trying to serve God by the Law. I also have shared it with friends and have seen great changes with them after hearing it.
Was there any desire in my heart that certain posters would read the excerpts and listen to the sermon and apply it to themselves, I must confess that their was, was I exclusively thinking of you, no, but I have to acknowledge that I have been disturbed by several post of several posters of late, including some of yours in which I want to apologize of any animosity that has appeared through any of my post and repent of all bitterness that I have held.

Brother amrkelly, I do not find myself disturbed when I disagree on subjects with those whom I have little respect for, It is those whom I have much respect for, such as yourself that I become very disturbed with when differing opinions arise.




 2013/2/22 0:43Profile









 Re: amrkelly

Thats fine brother. I am sorry that my including a reference to the sermon you posted gave rise to a false accusation.

 2013/2/22 2:59









 my brother Greg

you testified:

Quote:
Only those who love the truth will endure what is coming.



yes...amen. it will be the worst of times, and Praise God, the best of times...and the beauty of it all will be, we will be hard pressed to tell between the two, this side of Heaven!

we might be burned, we might be stoned, we might be ignored, we might be shot, we might find a cave as a dwelling, but we , God willing, might hear the Words, "Well done, thy good and faithful servant."

NO FEAR!

 2013/2/22 5:49
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re: Solomon101

Forgive me if my post has hurt you. My point is not to bring any mistake in your post. I was encouraged by Greg's response to your original post and I posted saying it was a good post by our moderator. I found the danger of calling every spirit of discernment as spirit of Pharisee, because it is directly against the word of God. When God asks us to discern every spirit and someone says if you discern you are a pharsiee then whom should I believe? Let God alone be true and every man a liar.

Also in my posts I have never criticized people jumping or leaping. Why do you then quote me saying things which I have never said? All I said was the way I saw a famous Tele evangelist driving out demon in a way that Jesus never did and hence it is not the work of Holy Spirit. If you give me a scripture proving me wrong then I am willing to accept my mistake. Instead you are quoting things that I have never said and conclude that I do not know God's word.


_________________
Sreeram

 2013/2/22 11:54Profile





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