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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 A Civil Discussion on Healing

Hello all-

Below is a transcript of part of a teaching I heard recently. For the purpose of this discussion it does not matter who the speaker is. Many different pastors/teachers say similar things. Following the transcript I am going to pose some questions for discussion. I would prefer that we leave out terms like "Word of faith" or "name it/claim it" and the like and simply keep it to a biblical discussion. The reason for this is that I know of many persons who say and believe things like this speaker says and have nothing to do with the WOF movement. No names need to be mentioned. I am doing this because I struggle in my understanding of this area, and find myself wavering back and forth on what I actually believe about the subject of healing. Further, I am not aware of the personal situation of any person who posts here and it is not my intention to hurt any feelings. I just want to have a civil discussion without calling those who may disagree with us heretics, or something similar.

Here is the transcript:
--------------------------
"As they sat there during the week- these people who were dying-- some can't eat- they're in pain- they have very restricted lives-- they've got tubes-- its just horrible. You can see the anguish on their face- the pain with slight movements, the cringe, all this stuff. You can see the dark cloud that just rests over the top of their life- you can see it's just sucking the life right out of them. It's real tough to see that kind of stuff and realize that a large part of the church has created room for this. "God's just allowed it."

No He has NOT allowed it!

He put a gun in your hand and said "shoot that thing."

WE allowed it.

Then suddenly people start realizing- "Oh, this wasn't from God! That means I can fight!"

It's tough to fight when you think it's just your Heavenly Father trying to teach you how to be a good Christian. Few things nauseate me more than that. I'd get arrested for child abuse if I did that to my kids.

And the thought that anyone could think that God is that way is extremely disturbing.

I need some people who will agree with me. I want some folks who will get provoked and say "You know what, it's really possible for [City X] to be cancer free. It's possible, because it doesn't exist in heaven. And He said "on earth as it is in heaven." His standard is the only standard worth reaching for. His standard is the only one worth praying for. Learning to take through violence by the expression of faith in that realm.

It's gotta matter to somebody. This is wrong. This is illegal. I have been given the authority of heaven to come against that devourer. Will somebody stand? Will somebody cry out for this thing to be broken off of people's lives?

It's NOT tolerated by God-- it's tolerated by the Church. It's the Church that's created stupid doctrines to allow affliction to dominate peoples' lives and we call it "God." It's not God! It's still the devil, who still has the job of stealing, killing and destroying and YOU have the authority cancel the job. That's who you are. That's your assignment. You were put on the earth breathing air because of that assignment.

It's NOT just about physical healing. It's about every area where the devil has come in and stolen.

Faith actualizes what it realizes. Oh you see this crisis here, that crisis there-- I don't care. It doesn't move me. All that moves me is what God's will is. All I am moved by is the pattern Jesus gave to us. That's got to matter. It's got to matter enough that we shape the way we view the world and view circumstances around us by how we live.

Jesus healed everyone oppressed by the devil. Period. Every person that came to him. He never once said, "Man, I'd really like to be able to heal you but the Father is just using this to make you a better person. You know, there's a time for these things and I only do what the Father is doing and I am looking at Him right now and He's just not healing you. Sorry."

[Mr. X] had a secret. He said "If God's not moving, I'll move Him." It wasn't an arrogant statement. He knew he had an authority based on this Word. He knew he had written authority to carry out the mission that Jesus had. He knew it was in black and white, paid for in blood. He knew that it was his possession. And if [Mr X] came into a meeting and God wasn't moving powerfully, he would move Him. How? He would move into a place of faith where God was moved by what he did. He thought if he didnt see it happening, he was going to start poking holes in the heavens with faith and start declaring the word of the Lord.

There's something about the testimony. You just have to start talking about what Jesus has done."
______________________

Now some questions:

1) Does God give people cancer (or any other disease)?
2) Why did Jesus heal people?
3) Did Jesus ever inflict someone with a disease for their own good, e.g. to "teach them patience?"
4) Does the fact that a person has cancer (or any other disease) mean that it is God's will that they have cancer?
5) Can we go after sickness in prayer and not have to worry about "not being in the will of God" or is this something we have to worry about?
6) Does the devil give people cancer (or any other disease)?
7) Do believers have authority today to command sickness to leave a person in Jesus' name?




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Todd

 2013/2/19 11:38Profile
romanchog
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Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 326


 Re: A Civil Healing Discussion

I will attempt to answer some of these questions, but My husband died Jan 1 of this year from cancer, and my children and I struggled and still struggle with these questions.

1) Does God give people cancer or any disease? My husband asked this question also. I don't know. I used to believe that God would not give cancer or any disease to anyone. But in 1 Samuel 5:6 it says that God struck the people with tumors (because they had the Ark of the Covenant). However, in Job we see that God does not Himself make Job sick, but He allows Satan to do so. We can reconcile these two if we say that by God permitting Satan to do something, He is doing it, and therefore perhaps in 1 Samuel it just means that God permitted Satan to do so? That would be changing the clear meaning of the text. Also, there is a difference: Job was a believer, and the Ashdods were not.

In James it says that every good gift comes from above and that God does not tempt anyone. Do these scriptures in James have anything to do with sickness? I don't know.

As I said, I don't know.

2) Why did Jesus heal people? For the glory of God and the spreading of the Gospel. It also shows that He comes from God. A different but related question is why did the apostles heal, which is more relevant today since Jesus is not walking today. In Acts 4: 29-30 it says "Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” This clearly states that the way that the apostles will be bold and speak the words is BY GOD HEALING people. We often hear stories of miraculous healings done by God in the mission field healings that we don't see here. In light of this verse, that makes sense.


3) Did Jesus ever inflict someone with a disease for their own good, e.g. to "teach them patience?" I don’t see that Jesus did this. But as I already shared, there is scripture to state that God has in the past but not for their own good. It was a response to these unholy people having the Ark of the Covenant in their possession and in the temple of their idol.

4) Does the fact that a person has cancer (or any other disease) mean that it is God's will that they have cancer? I don’t know. I don’t have scripture to support either position. I do know that God is sovereign and that nothing happens without Him allowing it. In this sense, it is God’s will. But as I said before in James it says that God is giver of good gifts. Again, the question is does this apply here?
When my husband found out he had cancer, he had an unusual reaction: he was glad. He thought this would be an opportunity for him to destroy his flesh and to put himself fully at the mercy and dependence of God. If he did not survive, he knew he would go to be with Christ.

5) Can we go after sickness in prayer and not have to worry about "not being in the will of God" or is this something we have to worry about? The answer is a resounding YES. We ought to pray about everything and pray for it persistently. Jesus told us to pray as the widow who annoyed the unrighteous judge, never stopping. James says we ask that we don’t receive because we do not ask OR because we ask for our own desires and not for the Glory of God. (James 4:3). Also, James also states that we ought to pray for the sick, and they will recover. (James 5 – but there are conditions attached to this). In all this, we must also remember that we have to accept God’s will. That is why Jesus taught us to pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are also supposed to thank God FOR everything. (Eph 5:20).
Personally, this has been a very difficult thing for me. I understand it, and I have done it. I accept that it was God’s will that my husband should die and not be healed. I have even thanked Him for it, though I cannot say I do it with my whole heart but only out of obedience. But I don’t understand why God would have us pray and pray and pray and pray and pray, believing that He will do something (Jesus said we are to pray believing (John 14:13) ) and knowing that He CAN do it, and then not grant it. It seems to me a bit cruel. I am not trying to judge God, I simply don’t understand.

6) Does the devil give people cancer (or any other disease)? Answered in (1) above.


7) Do believers have authority today to command sickness to leave a person in Jesus' name? I do not believe that we have authority. It is true that the apostles, when Jesus sent them out, performed miracles in Jesus name and the book of Acts is full of examples of signs of healings and casting out demons. But, as I discussed above, that is for the purpose of spreading the Gospel. I don’t believe that believers have ANY authority to do anything. Christ said that ALL authority on heaven and earth was given to HIM. Mat 28:18. That leaves us with NO authority. IF we are in Christ and abide in Him and are led by the Spirit, Christ can do THROUGH us His work, but that does not mean that we have the authority. I don’t see anywhere in Acts where the apostles claimed to have any authority to command sickness to leave. They spoke in the NAME of Jesus.

These are my thoughts. I hope that this can turn into a fruitful discussion and does not turn into a lot of name calling. It is so distressing to Christ when we treat each other like that and disobey His command that we love one another. It makes me so sad that to this day, His prayer has not been answered : “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (John 17:21-23). It is no wonder that the world will not believe in Christ.


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Natalie

 2013/2/19 16:44Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

Thank you, Romanchog, for your thoughts. I appreciate your insight in light of what has happened to you and your family. My prayers are with you.

I think much of the dispute in the area of healing may fall under #7. Some would say that we (the Church) are the representation (Body) of Christ on the earth today and we are commissioned to carry on his mission. Each have different giftings. When I say authority, I do not mean final and ultimate authority. Jesus of course, as you noted, has all authority. We do not heal; He does. The question is whether he grants the Church a certain amount of authority to deal with sickness, or the powers of darkness.

The apostles healed in the name of Jesus, but they generally did not pray for a healing or deliverance. They simply commanded healing or deliverance in Jesus's name. When Peter and John healed the lame man, the told him to rise and walk in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. They did not "pray" for a healing. In fact, I am not sure if there is a case where the apostles prayed for a deliverance or a healing.

Here is the practical difference, for our day, as I see it:

1) "Father, please heal _______ of x disease in the name of Jesus, if it is your will"; or
2) "x disease, I command you to leave in Jesus's name."

Are we "allowed" to do #2 vs #1?? Which evidences more faith? I am not sure, but it is worth discussing.


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Todd

 2013/2/19 18:01Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

Also, in regard to #1, I agree that there is something of a fine line between God directly causing and simply "allowing."

For example, if we accept that God does put cancer (or other diseases) on people, then it may not be right to pray for healing, unless we are trying to get God to change his mind (which is not unheard of). If God only **allows** such things, his role is merely passive. If he is allowing the devil to have his way, I think it is reasonable for us as believers to fight the devil and his schemes.

In other words, just because God "allows" something does not necessarily mean that He is okay with it.. at least that is my opinion.


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Todd

 2013/2/21 11:19Profile
romanchog
Member



Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 326


 Re:

I disagree. Even if God DOES directly put diseases on people, we are still to pray for healing. How do we know what God's purpose is in putting/allowing disease on someone? It may simply be for us to pray more or to build up more faith.

The death of Lazarus is a good example. God obviously allowed Lazarus to get sick and die. It does not say that He made him die, but elsewhere in the Bible we know that God is the one who kills and takes our lives, so obviously He was involved in Lazarus' death. Mary and Martha were obviously praying for him to be healed. They called to Jesus who delayed so that God could be glorified in His raising of Lazarus.

Was it wrong for them to pray? I don't think so. Again, I don't think it is ever wrong to pray for healing UNLESS we have received a direct command from the Spirit NOT to pray. We are commanded to pray always, and to ask always. I will continue to do so, even though most of my prayers for healing have not been answered. I must continue to trust that God knows more than I and He has purposes that of which I am not unaware.


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Natalie

 2013/2/24 18:27Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5375
NC, USA

 Re:

Romanchog-

I agree with you.

My statement regarding God putting cancer on people in my prior post was merely rhetorical. I do not not believe that He does this, which of course gives us all the reason to pray more fervently.


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Todd

 2013/2/24 19:20Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 hummmm

I don't have the time to write what I would like here but let me make a few really basic observations real quick, if I have time I'll try to add some more. Foundational (sp?) is 1)There are 2 classes of people in the bible..The covenant people of God and the Non-covenant people...or all others:) Also with in the Covenant people there is/ are sub categories, those who are in sin or idolatry or backsliders or have willfully departed from... you get the idea...So when looking at sickness in the Word of God and how its handled you have to look first at the whole picture and exactly who is being targeted, like someone mentioned the tumors God struck the Philistines with because of the way they handled the Ark of God (really need to note that now we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit here with all that it implies).The Philistines were called the un-circumsized or in other words they were NON-covenant people. They were struck in judgement by God in His justice. I thank the Lord for His mercy toward us His children :)

You may want to look into the Psalms if you want to see how God uses affliction in the life of "His" children.



As for works either allowed by God done by satan or works done by our adversary where he just crosses the line without having God's premission, thats a really big topic and would take an aweful lot of scripture study and looking into the word of God. Real quick so you a frame work to study it out for your self...if you could look through the Old Testament and study out the countries around Israel and think of them as "principalities and powers of darkness...so to speak" and how they interacted with Israel, you have a decent foundation on how the enemy of our souls comes at us.


No more time left....but godspeed in your searching after the Lord for the matters of your heart.


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D.Miller

 2013/2/25 9:34Profile





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