SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What are your thoughts?? For a mature faith does inerrancy matter?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 )
PosterThread
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 SkepticGuy

Hi SkepticGuy

SkepticGuy wrote ///when i referred to catholic mystics i was referring to other conversations on this board where we are encouraged to consider the words of certain catholic mystics.///

Some of those catholic mystics, that some have encouraged have been catholics but they were also persecuted by their own church , such as Guyon I have heard Tozer quote her and also I have heard Waldvogel quote her.

// Madame Guyon's most devout disciples after her death were to be found among the Protestants and especially the Quakers. Evangelicals such as (((Charles Spurgeon))) [7] and Johan Oscar Smith[8] were also influenced. Both (((Watchman Nee))) and (((Witness Lee writings))) were very much influenced by Madame Guyon. Her works were translated into English and German, and her ideas, forgotten in France, have been read in Germany, Switzerland, England, and America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Guyon

 2013/2/11 9:19Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: What are your thoughts?? For a mature faith does inerrancy matter?

To the original question:

Quote:
So What are your thoughts?? For a mature faith does biblical inerrancy matter?



Yes. Because the way that we view the scriptures in terms of inspiration and authority will weigh very heavily on what we believe and in turn how they influence the decisions of our lives. Because I believe that the original autographs of the scriptures are inspired of the Holy Spirit, my approach to studying the word of God is such that I desire to know exactly what the Holy Spirit said through that inspiration. I assume that the word written is the exact word that the Holy Spirit wanted written. I can then move from that reality towards understanding what those inspired words mean. I am referring to the original Hebrew and Greek texts.

The Lord Jesus regarded the Old Testament scriptures to be the Word of God. (Luke 24:27) He appealed to their authority and interprets them to the Disciples revealing Himself therein. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy.

In 1 Timothy 5:18 we have a quotation that contains part Old Testament and New Testament revelation together. " For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." This is a combination of Deut 25:4 and Matthew 10:10 or Luke 10:7. Paul, by inspiration, combines what he regarded as scripture with scripture.

Peter regards the words of Paul as scripture as we read in 2 Peter 3:16 "... as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures." Here we have Peter placing Paul's writings on par with the "rest of the scriptures". We also have implied that twisting the words of scripture will lead to destruction. This is because he regarded them as absolutely in authority.

Holding this view of the scriptures is essential to having a right understanding of God, man, man's condition and God's answer to man's condition. The scriptures are not a compendium of all knowledge, they are a "God's eye view" of events that bring revelation to us concerning God's redeeming acts through history. The Germans have a word for this approach to the scriptures they call heilsgeschichte. It simply means "Salvation History." When a person is born of the Spirit they are enabled by the Spirit to discern and understand the words that are written. The Holy Spirit, that serves as the representative of Jesus Christ, takes us individually through our own personal Luke 24:27. If we will approach the scriptures with a good conscience, taking advantage of every means of knowledge and understanding that He provides for us, we can rightly divide the Word of Truth. But you have to believe that what you are studying is exactly what the Holy Spirit inspired or you will have nothing to tether you to Truth. Blessings, Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2013/2/11 10:10Profile
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re: SkepticGuy

Quote:
Hi SkepticGuy

SkepticGuy wrote ///when i referred to catholic mystics i was referring to other conversations on this board where we are encouraged to consider the words of certain catholic mystics.///

Some of those catholic mystics, that some have encouraged have been catholics but they were also persecuted by their own church , such as Guyon I have heard Tozer quote her and also I have heard Waldvogel quote her.

// Madame Guyon's most devout disciples after her death were to be found among the Protestants and especially the Quakers. Evangelicals such as (((Charles Spurgeon))) [7] and Johan Oscar Smith[8] were also influenced. Both (((Watchman Nee))) and (((Witness Lee writings))) were very much influenced by Madame Guyon. Her works were translated into English and German, and her ideas, forgotten in France, have been read in Germany, Switzerland, England, and America.



...and? lots of people have been tortured or persecuted for lots of different faiths. duznt mean a thing. muslims blame their violent acts on what they perceive as centuries of persecution. r we going 2 start quoting mohammad on this board next? even hitler was persecuted 4 what he believed at 1 point. he was in jail as a political prisoner when he wrote mein komp. its a bit scarey what sum of u thinks verifies sincere belief in christ.

 2013/2/11 11:21Profile
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

Quote:
heilsgeschichte



bless you!

 2013/2/11 11:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:
...and? lots of people have been tortured or persecuted for lots of different faiths. duznt mean a thing. muslims blame their violent acts on what they perceive as centuries of persecution. r we going 2 start quoting mohammad on this board next? even hitler was persecuted 4 what he believed at 1 point. he was in jail as a political prisoner when he wrote mein komp. its a bit scarey what sum of u thinks verifies sincere belief in christ.



I wonder if anyone will spot the subtle differences between Mien Kampf (My Struggle) and Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ. The tilte may give it away a little but here is another clue:

Just four years after the war to end all wars, an Austrian then living in Bavaria planned a pamphlet to be called Settling Accounts. In it he intended to attack the ineffectiveness of the dominant political parties in Germany which were opposed to the new National Socialists (Nazis). In November 1923, Adolf Hitler was jailed for the abortive Munich Beer Hall putsch along with men willing and able to assist him with his writing. The end result was Mien Kampf.

Jeanne Guyon (1648-1717) was a French woman, widowed at the age of 28 after an unhappy marriage. She was a mystic and spiritual counselor whose writing of A Short and Very Easy Method of Prayer (later re-named Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ) evoked immediate controversy: stirring many in France to greater devotion to Christ, but leading to persecution and book burnings by the religious authorities of her day who believed her emphasis on quiet prayer undermined religious duty.

Is it possible that we may have missed the point of quoting from a 17th century mystic and faithful sister in the Lord and why we do not quote from the political rantings of a self driven egotist and perverse dog of war.

 2013/2/11 14:15
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

brother amrkelly, u certainly have a flare for the dramatic. i did not quote from mein kampf, nor suggest his writings were similar to this catholic lady u like.

u missed my point entirely. my point was that the authority of god's word alone is what verifies if sum1 is a believer or not, not the fact that sum1 was persecuted. even hitler was persecuted, but that didnt make him right.

there r sum who say that if u r not being persecuted for ur faith then u better take a look at what u believe. but i fear many have taken this too far and sumhow believe that IF u are persecuted for ur faith then ur faith is legit in the eyes of god.

history says "not so". if it were so then we would all be mormons. joseph smith was persecuted, jailed, beaten, run out of town and eventually martyred for his faith. if i use the reasoning of sum here we must conclude that he was a born again believer.

that was my point, but thank u for the entertaining way in which u misunderstood me, my friend. :-)

 2013/2/11 14:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
there r sum who say that if u r not being persecuted for ur faith then u better take a look at what u believe. but i fear many have taken this too far and sumhow believe that IF u are persecuted for ur faith then ur faith is legit in the eyes of god.



You are right of course some people do say that a real faith produces persecution. I think what is meant by this though may not be the kind of "persecution" which Joseph Smith experienced or as you say Hitler provoked against himself. The reality though is that Joseph Smith wasn't really persecuted, he was feared and not without good reason the same could be said for Hitler. It seems to me that when those who say true faith produces persecution what they really mean is that a true faith and calling of God by very nature of the reality of what that means (being born again) sets the individual at odds with the world. So that just as the world hated Christ, so the world hates those who are truly possessed of His life. Hate in this sense does not necessarily mean hunted down or persecuted to the point of death. It will however always mean "at variance" with the world and therefore not held in favour by the world.

I'm glad you didn't take offence at my drama!

 2013/2/11 15:04
SkepticGuy
Member



Joined: 2012/8/8
Posts: 259


 Re:

i enjoy our conversations my brother. never offended by u, or any1 else for that matter. i've even learned to play good with bearmaster.

 2013/2/11 15:18Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

There is a passage worth quoting here, but we must not take it in reverse:

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. (2 Tim. 3:12 NKJV)

Above is an example of how persecution is to be expected for a true believer, but if we take it in reverse the statement breaks down. In other words, all who suffer persecution do not necessarily desire to live godly in Christ Jesus.

I think we also need to define what the scriptures mean by "martyr". The word means 'a witness'. This is someone that can in one sense authoritatively testify of the truth of the Gospel. "You shall be my witnesses (martyrs)..., said Jesus." A true martyr that is killed is like unto Stephen or faithful Antipas (or the rest of the martyred disciples and apostles). What was Stephen's testimony at the end? "Lord lay not the sin to their charge." (Acts 7:60) This is evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. His testimony was powerful. Paul was a faithful witness as well and communicated a similar statement in 2 Timothy 4:16.

The difference between these men and other men such as Joseph Smith is that they did not take up arms and fight like Smith did. He effectively died in a shootout and is said to have employed an at the time, state-of-the-art Allen's six-shooting revolver. Based upon the Biblical definition of martyr, Joseph Smith falls quite short. Jesus laid down His life as an expression of love and loved to the end. So did Stephen and the rest. In this way their lives became living epistles, that though may not be effectual in debate, weighs mightily on the conscience. Blessings, Robert



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2013/2/11 16:03Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: wayneman

Hi wayneman
wayneman wrote ///proud papa,
This thread is based on a contentious topic, and had the potential to degenerate into a brawl. Happily, that has not happened. This is a good discussion.
I have participated in this thread in the hope that anyone who is in Doubting Castle because of some doctrine of inspiration that they heard in Sunday School will see that 1.) They are not the only ones; 2.) They are making things unnecessarily complicated by taking Pop Theology seriously; 3.) There is no reason to remain in doubt of the testimony of the apostles and prophets; 4.) The Bible is not our teacher; it is the textbook of the One Great Teacher. John 14:26///

I agree this is a good discussion.

I have never disagreed so much and yet at the same time agreed so much with some one on a topic.
I think leting each other know where we where coming from really helped.

 2013/2/11 17:36Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy