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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : Leadership

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Leadership

I desire your prayers this week. I will be confronting my youth pastor(im a part of the leadership) and pastor about some things in the church i disagree with. There are alot of modern tendencies that i feel are unbiblical. This will seem as a shock because I am willing to leave if it does not change. This is terrifing to my flesh but i feel that i must do this. Please pray for me. :-o


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/7 9:49Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Leadership

Josh,

Will be praying for courage. Speak the truth in love brother. All you have to do is to speak what the Holy Spirit gives you. You're not responsible for how they react.

My basic personality is that of a people pleaser and it's one of the many things the Holy Spirit is digging at these days.

God bless you Josh. Will be praying for you.


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Ed Pugh

 2005/3/7 16:55Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I did go speak with my youth pastor today. It was done with much love. I honestly was terrified to do such a thing. Since im almost positive no one knows what church im talking about I'll share what I feel and would love to hear your opinion. I will be talking to the Sr pastor probably Wendesday.

One thing that really struck me was that I was told that if there was not record of me tithing I could not be in a leadership position. In order for that to be I have to either write a check or put my money in an evelope with my name on it. I just felt uneasy about this because I fear (though they are not at the moment this way) that it could become more of an dictatorship. I beleive the motive at the moment is just to keep everyone accountable. What do you all think of this?

I hear alot of the goodness of God preached with some traces of the prosperity gospel. I have never heard a one sermon on hell,holiness of God. or seperation from the world. Not that I feel that every so often it has to be preached every X amount of days, but is it not a major theme in the Bible? I see Jesus speaking about those topic very often. If that is the case why has it changed?

This is some of what I feel. What does everyone else think?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/7 19:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi PreachParsley,

Quote:
This is some of what I feel. What does everyone else think?



Tithing and money are always stickey topics. People can get real funny when it comes to money. It is not real uncommon to hear that leaders are required to tithe because leaders are expected to carry the "Spiritual Load" of the Church. I have my own feelings on this, but let me just say that on a practical level ministry often requires money to operate. House Churches don't take near as much money; but it still must be remembered that Ministers of the Gospel are to live of the Gospel. How could this happen if no one gives? If a minister is expected to work 40+ hours a week and shepherd a church there is something that will have to give or the Pastor will burn out.

Look at this New Testament passage:

Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

This is quite interesting. The passage that really sticks out is- who goes to war at his own expense? It is as sure that God would allow a minister to live of the Gospel as it is that a farmer would allow the oxen to eat of the field they worked. It is God's plan and providence. We have to support ministers who labor in the Gospel.

Let me relay a little story:

There was a lady in a small town in Missouri that wanted to do her pastor a favor so she went into her cellar and cleaned out some old apricot (or similar) jelly that no one else would eat and brought it to the pastor as an 'offering.' She unloaded it out of the trunk at the house as if she had really done God a service. She concluded the stay with a final request; "Oh, by the way, when your finished with my Mason jars will you please wash them out and return them."

This is the opposite extreme to the Bently Driving ministers. Remember the commandment; do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If your livelihood was resting on the mercy of the offering plate how would you want the people watching it go by to respond? That is exactly how God wants us to give- as if we were the one receiving.

BTW I am an unpaid (monitarily) minister.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/7 21:19Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Oh yes brother I agree you should support your pastor. I surely do belive in giving I just dont know about making a list and checking it twice to find out who has been naughty or nice when it comes to tithing. Is this just me trying to refuse authority?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/7 21:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Preachparsley,

Quote:
I just dont know about making a list and checking it twice to find out who has been naughty or nice when it comes to tithing.



That was a pretty good one. ;-)

What I generally understand is that leaders determine the destiny of the Church through their decisions (directors, etc.) particularly in finincial matters and in order to have a voice in that business there has to be financial support of the church by the voter to be consistent with the decision making.

I don't know that it is rebellion or anything; that would be something God would have to determine. I don't think we could even be certain of it in our own hearts. God would have to bring to light the hidden counsels of the heart for us to know it even of our own selves.

When I react to these types of things I generally conclude with thinking- "if that is the way the policy is, then I have to determine whether I will fall in line or not." If I feel God leading me I know He will make provision for me to be in conformance with the policy. God's will in God's timing will have God's provision.

God Bless,

-Robert




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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/7 21:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Money, hearts and masters

Well said Robert.

Something very bothersome about this whole issue is nearer to the core, a log jam between the head and the heart.

Somewhere along the line the heart isn't getting cut open, the light brought in to expose and the disposition beginning to change. It seems that much of what is being taught today is of such a variety that everything is a patchwork affair.

Had some years of being, as mentioned elsewhere 'tossed about all over the place' with this issue of tithing in particular, had flopped around like a fish with it. Feeling outwardly 'compelled' maybe even borderline manipulated and at times in actuality... But I could never quite understand or make sense of it on a practical scriptural level. The biggest of which stood out was in the idea that it needed so much emphasis, that it needed to be 'taught.' Maybe for the youngest of the young in the faith, but even then this, like everything in this walk is a heart issue...first.

At the risk of being misunderstood the present situation finds me baked up to the gills because of a failing business, indeed because of my own ineptness in these matters as well as whatever other circumstances, issues at home...But the sense of being handcuffed while I long to just pour myself out in the Lords work, the worthy appeals I have to throw in the trash...

And just as grievous is to see good ministries having to go to such lengths to try and and get people to part with a [i]minimum[/i]? That's where the whole idea doesn't seem to square with what we have in the New Testament, brethren [i]longing[/i] to give their [i]all[/i] no matter what it was. And like the thoughts behind what Robert illustrated, the sense is of practically an Ananias and Sapphira mentality.

It becomes a very difficult thing I could imagine for God fearing and Christ honoring pastors, the battles that must wage within as this becomes an unnecessary battle of faith for them. Surely they trust the Lord and yet if the brethren where just doing what ought to come naturally...

Here's an old, old thread [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=275&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]A worker is worthy of his wages[/url]

Don't know how much if any of this is help to you brother. It's sounds a tad .... But Robert made some very good points. He walks the talk, so I would defer to him.


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Mike Balog

 2005/3/7 22:49Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Well, part of the reason I have had been troubled by the record of my tithing (not completely rejecting it but it just doesnt go well with me) is that the church I'm talking about is a g-12 church. I'm not sure i agree (when it started i didnt think about it, i was much younger in my walk) with all of it but I did go along for the first year. Maybe I'm just really leary about it because of what I have read about it and am just too defensive. I honestly dont feel its just me making up things. I have not felt like I have been fed by the church since ive been there. I have grown tremendously since I've been going to the church, but from my pastor back home, here at SI, and other studying. Also, I am away from home at college right now. This is not my church "home". Its more like my home away from home. I am called to the ministry and I feel as though I need leadership that really drive me to holiness. I just dont feel that at this church that I am at, like I do at my home church (and even some other churchs I have visited. I just hope its not me just trying to find faults in things because I feel as thought I am to move on.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/8 9:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Preachparsley,

Quote:
I feel as though I need leadership that really drive me to holiness.



In time you will only be able to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you into holiness. I'm sure you already know this, but being away from home can be a great temptation... (i.e.) no one around that you know and such. It is at these times that our real character comes out. Character is not what we are when we are in the limelight- character is what we are when no one is looking. When you could get by with it and no one would know- what do you do? I have seen it repeatedly in my own life- that if I don't decide to follow the Holy Spirit then I would fall. the enemy wants to steal that 'edge' in your life. He wants to get you to compromise just a little bit in order to dull that cutting edge and blunt the utterance of God in your life.

With all thy getting get unction. The enemy wants to steal that unction by getting you to violate your conscience and create a controversy between you and God. Remember the proverb; the wicked flee when no man persues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. violating your conscience will make you timid and will steal your hunger for holiness. Don't let the devil do it! Submit to God and resist him.

As for the whole g12 thing I am not all that familiar with it. i'll have to let others speak to that issue.

God Bless and Be encouraged in the Lord Today!

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/8 10:28Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Thank you Brother!


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/8 10:59Profile





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