Matthew2323 wrote:As I mentioned the fact that John saw worshipers at the Temple strongly supports the idea that Revelation was written while the Temple was still standing.I ask:Are you referring to the worshipers that John saw after he was caught up into heaven and was standing before the throne of God? I don't remember anything about worshipers standing in the Temple of Herod in the book of Revelation. Of course my memory isn't perfect but what chapter and verse(s) are you reading this?
Andrew, you wrote, "...Revelation it is more important to understand that which makes for wisdom in this matter, than that which makes for a good historical insight."I'd like to ask you, on whose authority do you make the claim of "more important?" Also, who says that wisdom and historical insight are mutually exclusive?Could you explain your a priori dismissal of the wisdom to calculate the number of his name? You have noted that 17:8 is the explanation, however that is not all of the explanation as it continues into verses 9 and 10. Not surprisingly, verse 9 speaks of "the mind which has wisdom." Do you reject the need for wisdom in this passage as well or assign it lesser value? Why or why not?As far as your last point about the verse 8, let's look at it in its entirety:"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."I'm not sure why you only quoted part of the verse but the phrase, "whose name" is referring to "those who dwell on the earth" and not the beast. See also 13:8 where the word "name" is also written in the sigular when referring to a multitude. "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."In your second post you sought to connect verse 8 and 11 to create a 2000 year gap, but how does that work when the Revelation begins and ends with the statement that the events are "at hand?" Remember, these believers are being presecuted. Where is the comfort in knowing that relief is two millennia away?Colin,You wrote, "The seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings are empires that have ruled on earth. They are 1.Egyptian 2.Assyrian 3.Babalyion 4.Medo-Persian 5.Greece 6.Rome. As for the 7th mountain it has to be the Islamic Caliphate..."If you had lived in Asia Minor, that was under imperial Roman rule, why would you come to this conclusion? We are told in Revelation 1:3 and then again in 22:10 that the events will happen soon, from the reference point of the first readers. Thus, what in the context of the passage would have lead them to believe that the fulfillment was still nearly 600 years away?"So the Beast and the ten kings (Horns) will hate the whore Jerusalem and will make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."Sounds like the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age of the sacrifical system just as Jesus and Zechariah prophesied. What in the text would have lead the original audience to conclude that "soon" equals approximately 2000 years or more?Lisa,My point in these posts has been that in the New Testament the phrase "last days" refers to the end of the Old Covenant era with all of its rituals and what not. The article you linked is still looking beyond the first centry context of the New Testament. Just wondering if you've considered the possibility that some New Testament prophecy has already been fulfilled? Grace and peace,Matthew
_________________Matthew
TrueWitness,The Apostles John, speaking in Revelation 11:1 says,"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, 'Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.'"Grace and peace,Matthew
2 Thessonians 5:19-21Do not put out the Spirit's fire. Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold in to tbe good. Avoid every kind of evil.In arguing for a historical approach to Revelation that is exactly what is being done. The fire that would come of this majestic vision given to John is being put out. Correction has been put out. The vision becomes nothing more than history that has been fulfilled. Merely history. No spirit. No power. No prophesy. No power. And tragically no hope. Why not just argue Jesus is nothing mire than a historical character with no claims to being the Son of God. To argue Revelation is mere history would surely lead one to that conclusion.The Preterist does not see that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy as John recorded in Rev.19::10. Not was tbe spirit of prophesy. The Preterist does ot see that Revelation is a prophetic book that speaks blessing to those who read and hear it as recorded in Rev. 1:3. Also the Preterisy does not see see that Revelation is an ongoing message to many nations, languages ,kings, people, and nations as recorded Rev.10:10.In Rev. 2 thru 3 the admonition is repeated he that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Yet if one says this is merely first century. Then where is the power of the Spirit speaking through Revelation today. Or through any book of tbe Bible for that matter.What I see of tbe mind set of what is called Preterism is a view that denies the power of the prophetic word to speak today. All you are left with is the Bible as one glorious history book. No power to change lives. Indeed no gospel. The end. Jesus is only historical.One wonders where tbe Holy Spirit fits into Preterism. I imagine the same people sho argue for a historical Revelation say tbe prophetic sign gifts shut down after 100 AD. That is another thread.Personally I find tbe historical view of Preterism lacking in power. It certainly offers no hope for the return of Jesus. Also such a view puts out the fire of the word of God.My thoughts.Bearmaster.
Bearmaster,How does the fulfillment of prophecy make it lose power? Where is that written?There is plenty of application in Revelation for believers in all ages. I've said that already. The portions that prophesied the destruction of the temple and the end of the age of the Old Covenant have been fulfilled. How is that despising prophecy? Why is believing that the prophecy has not been fulfilled more respectful than saying it has been fulfilled? How does that put out the fire? Isn't it inspiring to know that God has fulfilled what He promised?Grace and peace,MatthewPS I've never claimed to hold to full preterism because I don't. Also I don't think anyone in this thread has stated such a position. We've only argued that the context demands a first century fulfillment for the portions we've been discussing.
Quote: Colin, If you had lived in Asia Minor, that was under imperial Roman rule, why would you come to this conclusion?I can tell you how I come to the conclusion The seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings are empires that have ruled on earth They are 1.Egyptian 2.Assyrian 3.Babalyion 4.Medo-Persian 5.Greece 6.Rome. As for the 7th mountain it has to be the Islamic Caliphate..." The starting point is the 6th Rome. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come Rev 17:10 The one that is at that time was Roman simple enough..Then we can backwards from there we know from Daniel that there four beastsThe 4 beasts vision of Daniel chapter 7 are commonly explained as follows:Lion = Babylonian EmpireBear = Medo-Persian EmpireLeopard = Greek Empire4th Beast = Roman EmpireSo how can the 4th Beast of Daniel vision be the 6th of John revelation? Most interpretations squash four stages into the Roman Empire era but we know from John at his time of revelation the current beast was the 6th the Roman Empire.Jesus mentioned a time called the times of the Gentiles. Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.When did the times of the Gentiles start did it start at the Babylonian Empire age or was Jerusalem being trodden down before then? 2 Chronicles 12 documents the taking of Jerusalem by the Egyptians however God showed them mercy because Israel humbled themselves and accepted there fate v8 they will, however, become subject to him, so that they may learn the difference between serving me and serving the kings of other lands. So Jerusalem was captured the temple plundered, the Kings house plundered and the Gold shields Solomon made were taken away but never the less Israel became the subjects of Egypt Empire. The times of the Gentiles started with the Egyptians so they the Egyptians are 1st Beast while the Assyrian were the 2nd.Thats how I come to my conclusion..
_________________Colin Murray
"..and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles"How do you interpret "shall be" as "has been?" Jesus speaks of an event in the future not the past?Also, how do you define the "at hand" passages in Revelation 1 and 22? What in the context would indicate this is anything other than imminent to the original audience?Grace and peace,Matthew
Could you explain your a priori dismissal of the wisdom to calculate the number of his name? You have noted that 17:8 is the explanation, however that is not all of the explanation as it continues into verses 9 and 10. Not surprisingly, verse 9 speaks of "the mind which has wisdom." Do you reject the need for wisdom in this passage as well or assign it lesser value? Why or why not? Matthew
As far as your last point about the verse 8, let's look at it in its entirety: "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come." I'm not sure why you only quoted part of the verse but the phrase, "whose name" is referring to "those who dwell on the earth" and not the beast. See also 13:8 where the word "name" is also written in the singular when referring to a multitude. "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Matthew
I'd like to ask you, on whose authority do you make the claim of "more important?" Also, who says that wisdom and historical insight are mutually exclusive? Matthew