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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

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TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 503


 Re:

Matthew2323 wrote:

As I mentioned the fact that John saw worshipers at the Temple strongly supports the idea that Revelation was written while the Temple was still standing.

I ask:

Are you referring to the worshipers that John saw after he was caught up into heaven and was standing before the throne of God? I don't remember anything about worshipers standing in the Temple of Herod in the book of Revelation. Of course my memory isn't perfect but what chapter and verse(s) are you reading this?

 2013/1/27 9:59Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

Andrew, you wrote, "...Revelation it is more important to understand that which makes for wisdom in this matter, than that which makes for a good historical insight."

I'd like to ask you, on whose authority do you make the claim of "more important?" Also, who says that wisdom and historical insight are mutually exclusive?

Could you explain your a priori dismissal of the wisdom to calculate the number of his name? You have noted that 17:8 is the explanation, however that is not all of the explanation as it continues into verses 9 and 10. Not surprisingly, verse 9 speaks of "the mind which has wisdom." Do you reject the need for wisdom in this passage as well or assign it lesser value? Why or why not?

As far as your last point about the verse 8, let's look at it in its entirety:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."

I'm not sure why you only quoted part of the verse but the phrase, "whose name" is referring to "those who dwell on the earth" and not the beast. See also 13:8 where the word "name" is also written in the sigular when referring to a multitude.

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

In your second post you sought to connect verse 8 and 11 to create a 2000 year gap, but how does that work when the Revelation begins and ends with the statement that the events are "at hand?" Remember, these believers are being presecuted. Where is the comfort in knowing that relief is two millennia away?


Colin,
You wrote, "The seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings are empires that have ruled on earth. They are 1.Egyptian 2.Assyrian 3.Babalyion 4.Medo-Persian 5.Greece 6.Rome. As for the 7th mountain it has to be the Islamic Caliphate..."

If you had lived in Asia Minor, that was under imperial Roman rule, why would you come to this conclusion? We are told in Revelation 1:3 and then again in 22:10 that the events will happen soon, from the reference point of the first readers. Thus, what in the context of the passage would have lead them to believe that the fulfillment was still nearly 600 years away?

"So the Beast and the ten kings (Horns) will hate the whore Jerusalem and will make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

Sounds like the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age of the sacrifical system just as Jesus and Zechariah prophesied. What in the text would have lead the original audience to conclude that "soon" equals approximately 2000 years or more?


Lisa,
My point in these posts has been that in the New Testament the phrase "last days" refers to the end of the Old Covenant era with all of its rituals and what not. The article you linked is still looking beyond the first centry context of the New Testament. Just wondering if you've considered the possibility that some New Testament prophecy has already been fulfilled?

Grace and peace,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew

 2013/1/27 11:21Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re: Worshipers in the Temple

TrueWitness,

The Apostles John, speaking in Revelation 11:1 says,

"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, 'Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.'"

Grace and peace,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew

 2013/1/27 11:30Profile









 Re:

2 Thessonians 5:19-21
Do not put out the Spirit's fire. Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold in to tbe good. Avoid every kind of evil.

In arguing for a historical approach to Revelation that is exactly what is being done. The fire that would come of this majestic vision given to John is being put out. Correction has been put out. The vision becomes nothing more than history that has been fulfilled. Merely history. No spirit. No power. No prophesy. No power. And tragically no hope.

Why not just argue Jesus is nothing mire than a historical character with no claims to being the Son of God. To argue Revelation is mere history would surely lead one to that conclusion.

The Preterist does not see that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy as John recorded in Rev.19::10. Not was tbe spirit of prophesy. The Preterist does ot see that Revelation is a prophetic book that speaks blessing to those who read and hear it as recorded in Rev. 1:3. Also the Preterisy does not see see that Revelation is an ongoing message to many nations, languages ,kings, people, and nations as recorded Rev.10:10.

In Rev. 2 thru 3 the admonition is repeated he that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Yet if one says this is merely first century. Then where is the power of the Spirit speaking through Revelation today. Or through any book of tbe Bible for that matter.

What I see of tbe mind set of what is called Preterism is a view that denies the power of the prophetic word to speak today. All you are left with is the Bible as one glorious history book. No power to change lives. Indeed no gospel. The end. Jesus is only historical.

One wonders where tbe Holy Spirit fits into Preterism. I imagine the same people sho argue for a historical Revelation say tbe prophetic sign gifts shut down after 100 AD. That is another thread.

Personally I find tbe historical view of Preterism lacking in power. It certainly offers no hope for the return of Jesus. Also such a view puts out the fire of the word of God.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

 2013/1/27 12:44
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

Bearmaster,

How does the fulfillment of prophecy make it lose power? Where is that written?

There is plenty of application in Revelation for believers in all ages. I've said that already.

The portions that prophesied the destruction of the temple and the end of the age of the Old Covenant have been fulfilled. How is that despising prophecy?

Why is believing that the prophecy has not been fulfilled more respectful than saying it has been fulfilled? How does that put out the fire? Isn't it inspiring to know that God has fulfilled what He promised?

Grace and peace,
Matthew

PS I've never claimed to hold to full preterism because I don't. Also I don't think anyone in this thread has stated such a position. We've only argued that the context demands a first century fulfillment for the portions we've been discussing.


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Matthew

 2013/1/27 13:14Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Colin,
 If you had lived in Asia Minor, that was under imperial Roman rule, why would you come to this conclusion?

I can tell you how I come to the conclusion The seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings are empires that have ruled on earth They are 1.Egyptian 2.Assyrian 3.Babalyion 4.Medo-Persian 5.Greece 6.Rome. As for the 7th mountain it has to be the Islamic Caliphate..."


The starting point is the 6th Rome. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come Rev 17:10 
The one that is at that time was Roman simple enough..

Then we can backwards from there we know from Daniel that there four beasts

The 4 beasts vision of Daniel chapter 7 are commonly explained as follows:

Lion = Babylonian Empire
Bear = Medo-Persian Empire
Leopard = Greek Empire
4th Beast = Roman Empire

So how can the 4th Beast of Daniel vision be the 6th of John revelation?

Most interpretations squash four stages into the Roman Empire era but we know from John at his time of revelation the current beast was the 6th the Roman Empire.

Jesus mentioned a time called the times of the Gentiles.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

When did the times of the Gentiles start did it start at the Babylonian Empire age or was Jerusalem being trodden down before then?

2 Chronicles 12 documents the taking of Jerusalem by the Egyptians however God showed them mercy because Israel humbled themselves and accepted there fate v8 they will, however, become subject to him, so that they may learn the difference between serving me and serving the kings of other lands.”

So Jerusalem was captured the temple plundered, the Kings house plundered and the Gold shields Solomon made were taken away but never the less Israel became the subjects of Egypt Empire.

The times of the Gentiles started with the Egyptians so they the Egyptians are 1st Beast while the Assyrian were the 2nd.

That’s how I come to my conclusion..


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/1/27 13:19Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

"..and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles"

How do you interpret "shall be" as "has been?" Jesus speaks of an event in the future not the past?

Also, how do you define the "at hand" passages in Revelation 1 and 22? What in the context would indicate this is anything other than imminent to the original audience?

Grace and peace,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew

 2013/1/27 13:27Profile









 Re: Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

Quote:
Could you explain your a priori dismissal of the wisdom to calculate the number of his name? You have noted that 17:8 is the explanation, however that is not all of the explanation as it continues into verses 9 and 10. Not surprisingly, verse 9 speaks of "the mind which has wisdom." Do you reject the need for wisdom in this passage as well or assign it lesser value? Why or why not? Matthew



There is no apriori dismissal just a choosing to accept the order in which the angel explains to John, that which made for a “great wonder” in his [John‘] mind (v7).




Quote:
As far as your last point about the verse 8, let's look at it in its entirety:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."

I'm not sure why you only quoted part of the verse but the phrase, "whose name" is referring to "those who dwell on the earth" and not the beast. See also 13:8 where the word "name" is also written in the singular when referring to a multitude. 

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Matthew



By referencing 17:8a and not the whole of that verse in the portion you have elected to question, it is to make a simple and clear point. The explanation given by the angel to John’ wondering, (disbelieving passive enquiry). First part and then afterwards part b as well as I posted.

The whole of Revelations speaks of that which was, which is and which is to come.

There is no reference in this passage from chapter seventeen to anyone being persecuted specifically moreover the passage is chronologically divided in contro-versely according to the explanation given and therefore relief from being persecuted or persecution itself is not the subject which is being spoken off. The subject is exclusively an explanation to John which begins with its chief object, “The beast”. The sum of the explanation is divided just as chapter seventeen is divided. Verse one to verse seven is the vision which caused John to wonder (disbelieving passive enquiry) verse eight is the sum of the explanation. Thereafter verse nine to verse nineteen is wisdom which though it is an explanation to John at that time according to John' knowledge as well as the explanation, today it can only be explained once again with wisdom. To explain it today does need some understanding of history as well as the whole of scripture (especially the gospels and the letters). The one who seeks comes to a conclusion and speaks of Rome and the one who ignores wisdom speaks of just about everything, yet it will not make for wisdom. One thing is for certain wisdom does not explain, she reveals. So if verse eight to nineteen all formed part of the “explanation” of the angel in the same way verse eight does which gives an emphatic explanation, then there would be no need for wisdom at all. The explanation would suffice. As it is verse nine to nineteen does require wisdom.

Quote:
I'd like to ask you, on whose authority do you make the claim of "more important?" Also, who says that wisdom and historical insight are mutually exclusive? Matthew



Lastly brother could I say that perhaps you did not realise it, but asking is an exercise of authority itself no matter how politely it may be worded.

As far as I know no one has said that “wisdom” and “historical insight” are mutually exclusive.

When I was a few weeks in the Lord whilst worshipping the Lord I found myself saying “Lord you have given me everything Lord. There is nothing now that I cannot do to serve you because I already have eternal life”. In response to this the Lord showed me a vision where I was being taken down a path onto a gallows and being hung by the neck. I was immediately asked the question, “would you go this far for Me Andrew”. In momentary soberness and physical concern for myself I was confused and wrestled with the vision for some seconds, then I said “Lord if you are there with me, I will be able to do it”. The place of which this vision spoke was Jerusalem. So I can say that I take great comfort from the Lord’ words to the apostles “Lo I am with you always, even unto the ends of the earth”.

Brother you ask “by what authority” well here it is. What other authority is there. "If you loved Me, you would obey my commands". Obedience unto death is the only authority we have in this world.

 2013/1/27 14:43





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