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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

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 Re:

I must come to tbe conclusion that tbe Preterist view of Revelation cannot explain the continuing persecution and martyrdom of Christians today. Now do those who hold to tbe Preterist view even believe persecution is raking place today?

Bearmaster.



 2013/1/25 23:53
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

Bearmaster,
It is important to recognize the difference between interpretation and application. We can interpret the New Testament documents from a first century perspective because that is the context within which they were written. Because they are ultimately inspired by the Holy Spirit there is application for us today (and at all times).

Isaiah prophesied the Messiah's sufferings. Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. This is an historical fact. Does that lessen the power of what God did because it's now history?

Simply because one prophecy about a coming persecution has been fulfilled does not mean the other passages speaking of persecution are null and void (John 16:33, 2 Timothy 3:12).

Just because you have not "seen" the coming of Christ in judgment against Israel, doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. I'm sure it is not your intention, but that amounts to you setting yourself up as a judge of the Scriptures. Where in the Bible does it tell us that if we "see" it, then it is true? Are you open to the idea that there could be things you don't know have happen and would therefore change how you view a certain text?

Even if this is a "whacked out millennium," who are you to tell the King how to rule His kingdom? Was God any less sovereign when Israel suffered under Pharaoh?


Jeremy,
Thanks for the reply. I have one of Mounce's books. It's been a whlie though.... :)

Since John was an Israelite and Revelation contains Old Testament references, it doens't seem to be too much of a stretch to think that this Hebrew transliteration was what he had in mind. Oddly enough, one book I read stated that FF Bruce holds to an early dating of Revelation. (Perilous Times by Kenneth Gentry)

After Paul's two year season of ministry in Ephesus, Luke tells us that "all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." This was in the early 50s. Smyrna was roughly 30 miles to the north and thus encapusalted in the "all Asia" phrase. Are you suggesting it took over 15 years to establish a "chruch" in Smyrna? The other six churches addressed in the Revelation had organized churches for that time period but Smyrna did not. That is a dubious proposition to say the least.

So while the word used in 1:1 (tachos) could be translated 'quickly,' the word 'eggus,' in the phrase "the time is near" refers to spatial or temproal nearness. Interestingly the the book of Revelation uses this word 'eggus' as a bookend, if you will. The first instance, as just mentioned, was in 1:3. It also appears in 22:10. "And he said to me, 'Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.'"

One would do well to note, that 22:6,7, 12 and 20 utilize 'tachos' or 'tachu." However, even if the four events described in these verses all come about 'quickly,' they are part of the prophecy (or larger context) whose "time is near."


Chris,
As I mentioned the fact that John saw worshipers at the Temple strongly supports the idea that Revelation was written while the Temple was still standing. If the epistle had been written after 70 AD, how would the original audience interpret this knowing John said that "the time is near" for these things to happen? Would they have really thought that meant 2000 years later? If so, what in the text supports that conclusion?

Nero's persecution of the Church began in 64 AD. The Revelation appears after that, but before 70 AD when the Temple is destroyed. John describes the end in the middle of Nero's rampage. How does that invalidate the prophecy?

That persecution has already commenced, John affirms when he states that he is "your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus..." (1:9)

"There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him." (Revelation 13:5)
As I'd mentioned, Nero's persuction began in 64 (mid-November) and it did not end until his death in early June of 68. So there you have 42 months, give or take a small percentage. (I'm willing to give the Holy Spirit the benefit of the doubt as far as the minutia of chronology is concerned.) :)

Revelation 13:10 states, "If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes ; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed." Nero was know for killing with the sword. (The Apostle Paul being one of his victims by beheading.) When Nero committed suicide, it was with... you guessed it, a sword.

Do you have any evidence in the New Testament for a late authorship?


DEADn,
You said, "Numeric values really don't mean anything to me when it comes to name." I'm sorry you feel this way, but the Bible tells its original audience to, "calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six." You can ruminate on that for a while.

It is important to remember that when the New Testament speaks of the "last days" it is speaking of the imminent end of the Old Covenant era. The coming of the Lord, refers to Jesus' judgment on Israel for their rejection of the Messiah with the climax being the destruction of the Temple (the great tribulation). So yes, those "last days" are over.

The writer to the Hebrews considered his days as the last days. "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son..." And what does the book of Hebrews deal with in great detail? The end of the Old Covenant and the supremacy of Christ. Fits quite nicely, don't you think?

Grace and peace,
Matthew


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Matthew

 2013/1/26 0:07Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1930


 Re: Revelation 17:10



Revelation 17:10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

Five are fallen - Have passed away as if fallen; that is, they have disappeared. The language would be applicable to rulers who have died, or who had been dethroned; or to dynasties or forms of government that had ceased to be. In the fulfillment of this, it would be necessary to find five such successive kings or rulers who had died, and who pertained to one sovereignty or nation; or five such dynasties or forms of administrations that had successively existed, but which had ceased.

And one is - That is, there is one - a sixth - that now reigns. The proper interpretation of this would be, that this existed in the time of the writer; that is, according to the view taken of the time of the writing of the Apocalypse. The sixth head of the beast, or that which existed in the time of St. John, was the imperial power of the heathen Caesars, or the seventh form of government.

And the other is not yet come - The sixth one is to be succeeded by another in the same line, or occupying the same dominion.

And when he cometh - When that form of dominion is set up. No intimation is yet given as to the time when this would occur.

He must continue a short space - oligon. A short time; his dominion will be of short duration. It is observable that this characteristic is stated as applicable only to this one of the seven; and the fair meaning would seem to be, that the time would be short as compared with the six that preceded, and as compared with the one that followed - the eighth - into which it was to be merged. After Nero died, he was succeeded by Galba who reigned for 6 months and a week until he was murdered by the Praetorian Guard. - Barnes

James M. MacDonald (1877)
"We have then only to reckon the succession of emperors, and we must arrive with certainty at the reign under which the Apocalypse was written or was seen. It stands thus: (Julius) Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius ; these make up the five who are fallen. 'One is' - Nero. The ancients, although the empire was not fully established till the time of Augustus, reckoned from Julius Caesar." (The Life and Writings of St. John, London: Hodder & Stoughton, p. 164, 1877).

Jay E. Adams (1966)
"Should there be any question about the contemporary nature of the second section of the book, the seventeenth chapter dispels it... Can the kings be identified? Yes. Five of them are already dethroned, one is now (that is, was in John's day) reigning, and the seventh hasn't yet begun to reign. Words could not be plainer. Regardless of which Roman emperor one identifies with the head there can be no doubt that the beast-prophecy pertains to the Caesars who were then in power. The prophecy can refer to nothing but the contemporary Roman empire because of the angel's clear cut identification." (The Time is at Hand, p. 53)

Moses Stuart (1836)
"It seems indisputably clear that the book of Revelation must be dated in the reign of Nero Caesar, and consequently before his death in June, A.D. 68. He is the sixth king; the short-lived rule of the seventh king (Galba) "has not yet come."

Milton Terry (1898)
"This receives additional confirmation in the fact that the book assumes to belong to the period of the sixth king as mentioned in 17:10, 'the one that now is,' and if we follow the most natural method of reckoning the Caesars, and the one which appears in Suetonius and Sibylline Oracles, we have (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, (6) Nero. The reign of Nero extended from A.D. 54-68, and somewhere between these dates we must assign the composition of the Apocalypse."

 2013/1/26 5:56Profile









 Re: Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

Apart from seeking to identify who the blasphemous king was as presented in Revelation it is more important to understand that which makes for wisdom in this matter, than that which makes for a good historical insight. That the most likely interpretation of the “seven kings” has to do with seven of the “kings of Rome” is almost indisputable, yet in seeking to prove this what is often missed is the substance as presented by the angel in giving John an explanation as to the meaning of the ‘seven horns”. The unifying parts are seven hills and seven kings. Only one city in the whole world has been built upon seven hills and this is Rome itself. Therefore it is not unreasonable to take the meaning “seven kings” as seven kings of Rome. However as I have said this often become so interesting and absorbing of itself, that the full interpretation is not followed through to its end.

The beginning is Revelation 13:1 then Revelation 17:3 and then finally the explanation begins in Revelation 17:8. In these verses there are Seven Horns, Ten Heads, Seven Diadems or Crowns, [Seven] Blasphemous Names and finally in the explanation in Revelations 17:8 is the key. The most important verse to understanding this business of the scarlet beast is verse eight because here is where we find the chronology of events, regardless of whether one has wisdom or not as to who the man is by the number of his name. If we skip verse eight and go straight to verse nine we will end up coming to all sorts of confusion. The simple chronology is expressly “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come” (v8). Moreover this is the beginning of the explanation and therefore cannot be of itself symbolic it is an explanation not a prophetic symbol.

There is also another requirement as well in seeking to understand who the scarlet beast is apart from the wisdom attendant to the number of his name. Although there are seven horns and seven diadems or crowns there are in fact eight separate time line events associated with the seven kings. The two sayings which encapsulate this reality are: The beast which you saw, “was, is not, and is about to come”. And “The beast which was and is not is also an eighth.” (v11). Of everything which is revealed in Revelation regarding the scarlet beast these two facts are not a matter of interpretation. They are stated as clear facts by the angel to John. To ignore them is to miss the most singular reality which begins its expression in verse eight "who's name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth".

 2013/1/26 17:32
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Only one city in the whole world has been built upon seven hills and this is Rome itself.

For a list of cities claimed to be built on seven hills see this linked as there is over sixty on it..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

One of the cites we all overlook is Jerusalem it is built on seven hills..

But moving on Rev 17: 9-10 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space

The seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings are empires that have ruled on earth. They are 1.Egyptian 2.Assyrian 3.Babalyion 4.Medo-Persian 5.Greece 6.Rome.

As for the 7th mountain it has to be the Islamic Caliphate this empire took over from Rome empire in ruling Jerusalem 636AD which is a key characteristic of all the other empires…

Rev 17:11-13 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The beast is the eighth and is of the seven and he will convince 10 kings to give there power and strength to him..

Rev 17:18 And the woman, which thou sawest, is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The woman riding the beast is “that great city” if we look at Rev 11:8 we find out what city it is.

Rev 11:8 “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified”

So we have 7 empires (seven heads are seven mountains are seven kings), which have ruled “that great city” Jerusalem.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

So the Beast and the ten kings (Horns) will hate the whore Jerusalem and will make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Look at what God said through Zechariah

‘For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.’ Zechariah 14:2


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Colin Murray

 2013/1/26 19:44Profile









 Re: Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

Looks as though seven hills is a Babylonian confusion after all. Pretty much like most of what is said on this subject. Fortunately the only city to have ever been called "built on seven hills" is Rome. It was in the day of the writing of Revelation and it is today. Unlike every one of the 60 cities which are in the list apart from Jerusalem and Athens they didn't actually exists in 96 AD. Pretty pointless talking about something that doesn't even exist don't you think! As for Athens and Jerusalem that really is a matter of geographical interpretation and imaginary use of what constitutes a hill. Have a look at Acropolis. Is their really a city on it? I think not. One needs a little bit of context you know brother otherwise what we write will have no meaning whatsoever. Your interpretation requires endless speculation and like all other things said on this subject it will make for rejection by the many who can't stomach such a speculative approach to Scripture. Prophetic symbolism is either for prophets or fools.

Personally it matters little to me which City is being spoken of in Revelation, because that really misses the point. It is a man which is being spoken of in finality and the city is just that, a city. The man is the thing which matters. Just to finish "and is also an eighth" is the only really meaningful part that any one of us would need to look into because it is the only supernatural part of the whole vision. Unlike the rest of it, it really does require revelation in this present day. Which was the simplicity of the point I was making. Who gives a stuff about bricks and mortar? No city is going to demand anything. It is flesh and blood ordinarily and in the instance of the "eighth" it is some thing more diabolical. The point about the empires is of course interesting but it falls down at the first hurdle. Nebuchadnezzar nor any of the Babylonian or Assyrian kings actually ruled over Jerusalem at all. They left it in ruins. They despised it and did not covert it in any part. Only the Temple Treasure and the people had any value to them. The city was despised.

 2013/1/27 1:37
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3392
East TN (for now)

 Re: Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666


I've not read past the first page of responses but I agree with Matthew's response on the first page: "How does Laurie go from John's multiple antichrists in the first century teaching to one super-villain nearly 2000 years later?"


This is not just to Matthew but to everyone... read this article and study the Scriptures that go with it... (I'm not saying the article is 100% correct, I don't believe anyone or theology is correct on the endtimes), the article is enlightning!

Daniel Unsealed Part 1
http://www.ekklesia4him.net/daniel_unsealed.html

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2013/1/27 6:07Profile









 Re: Greg Laurie Explains Significance of the Mark of the Beast, 666

It occurs to me that the principle reason why seven hills rather than seven horns and seven diadems or crowns is the focus of most people when reading Revelation is because of a need to “prove” what the city of seven hills really is. Chapter seventeen of Revelation includes both the seven hills and the seven horns and the seven crowns yet the focus is always on the seven hills. The distinction is that of a whore (a city) a women who rides or else reigns over that city, and a man. In an attempt to “prove” the man, the city and the whore become the focus. Yet Revelation does not place the focus itself that way round. The focus is the man and the city or the whore are secondary. They are of course real, but just as Paul the apostle placed the emphasis on a man and not a city it seems to me that wisdom lies with Paul and Revelation and not many historical interpreters.

Following are a few UR Locators which address this question of seven hills for anyone wanting to join in the confusion.

http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=11202
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/revelation-17-who-is-the-woman-who-sits-on-7-hills/
http://www.jubileechristiancollege.com/articles/hills-of-jerusalem
http://www.his-forever.com/city_on_seven_hills.pdf
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/revelation/17.html
http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/sevenhills.asp

The last of these links opens David Hunt’ presentation on this subject. In it Mr Hunt states the complete reverse of what I have shared myself. “Virtually all attention these days is focused on the coming Antichrist — but he is only half the story. Many are amazed to discover in Revelation 17 that there is also another mysterious character in the heart of prophecy — a woman who rides the beast." (A Woman Rides the Beast. D Hunt 1995).

As one of the moderators pointed out in another post recently, anti-christ does not mean against Christ it means in-place of Christ. In view of this reality of meaning, history has only ever really allowed for two cities where this man of sin, or anti-christ can appear or be associated with, given the designation of seven hills as forming part of the prophecy of Revelation chapter seventeen, on the one hand, as well as the idea that Israel could not accept as their Messiah one who was not a Jew and who did not come to Jerusalem to reveal himself as king. These two cities are therefore Rome and Jerusalem. Rome because of the bishop of Rome and his continued claims as to who he is. Jerusalem because of the belief that as it is Israel who is looking for the coming of Christ as well as the church, so Jerusalem is the only place an anti-christ could possibly appear and declare himself as true Christ. Rome because it has always been from its conception, dedicated and built on seven hills. Jerusalem because it was already in the time of Ezekiel, and Jeremiah, called a whore. The claim to seven hills of Jerusalem is an exaggerated and misleading one at best as the seven hills of Jerusalem did not form the foundation for Jerusalem in the time of John of Revelation. Also even though seven hills now do come into the boundary of what is the sprawling city of Jerusalem, the hills cited may be just as likely in Judea, as they are in Jerusalem itself.

Why then do I share that this way of focusing on a city is wrong and misleading. After all is seems perfectly rational that the claim that either a latter day bishop of Rome or else a Jerusalem based prophet would be true! So that to emphasise the city ought to be just as true and reasonable.

The reason is simply because long before John wrote Revelation we are told in scriptures that the spirit of anti-christ was already in the world, and also that many anti-christ’ have already gone into the world. The second reason is consistent with my understanding that most of the wickedness in this world has either come about through Israel or the church. All the babylonian efforts of Satan through the heathen, pale in comparison with what he has achieved through Israel and the Church. In the past Israel has made way for the Church and today the Church is making way for Israel. In that complexity of cause and effects, both hinged on apostasy of Israel and the Church, the fullness of evil is coming on the world in the form of the man of sin. In this sense we have to make a simple and clear distinction not only between two cities in time and space, but two men as well. One representing the church and the other representing Israel. Rome and Jerusalem are with us today and the effect of Satan’ activities in both these are representative, as well as forming in the end, actual efforts of a man; things will become evident enough in their time. A careful rational and chronological reading of Revelation clearly shows that there are two significant personalities as far as the scarlet beast is concerned. One begins in chapter seventeen verse eight and cannot be just overlooked and the other has to do with a women riding the beast. One is a man the other is a woman. One is a literal man supernaturally endowed and the woman is a system of religion representing Christ and by virtue of “riding” the beast, directly makes way for him, by directing him to his place.

Focusing on either the bishop of Rome or the anti-christ will in the end prove to be folly. These men are nothing. We are called to place our focus on Christ Himself and not men at all. Nevertheless the end of this age will come. This end will include the Mother of Harlots and the Scarlet Beast. Not one or the other but both. Their respective cities will be of little account compared with their effects on the nations, on Israel and on the Church.

Just to say it and without any attempt to explain it:

The connection between the first century and the twenty first century is summed up in these words “[and he] is also an eighth and is one of the seven (v8 + v11).

 2013/1/27 6:29
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Personally it matters little to me which City is being spoken of in Revelation, because that really misses the point. It is a man which is being spoken of in finality and the city is just that, a city.

Miss the point you cannot separate the city from the man, that man wants to have the city so that he can set up his throne there showing himself that he is God that he usurped the place of God, and claims the prerogatives of God.

Why because God says... I have chosen Jerusalem for my Name to be there...." 2 Chronicles 6:6

Jerusalem is so very important to God

Ezekiel 16

God’s Love for Jerusalem

16 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: “Your birth and your nativity are from the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 As for your nativity, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed in water to cleanse you; you were not rubbed with salt nor wrapped in swaddling cloths. 5 No eye pitied you, to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you; but you were thrown out into the open field, when you yourself were loathed on the day you were born.

6 “And when I passed by you and saw you struggling in your own blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ 7 I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare.

8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord God.

9 “Then I washed you in water; yes, I thoroughly washed off your blood, and I anointed you with oil. 10 I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you,” says the Lord God.

Jerusalem’s Harlotry

15 “But you trusted in your own beauty, played the harlot because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it. 16 You took some of your garments and adorned multicolored high places for yourself, and played the harlot on them. Such things should not happen, nor be. 17 You have also taken your beautiful jewelry from My gold and My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images and played the harlot with them. 18 You took your embroidered garments and covered them, and you set My oil and My incense before them. 19 Also My food which I gave you—the pastry of fine flour, oil, and honey which I fed you—you set it before them as sweet incense; and so it was,” says the Lord God.

20 “Moreover you took your sons and your daughters, whom you bore to Me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your acts of harlotry a small matter, 21 that you have slain My children and offered them up to them by causing them to pass through the fire? 22 And in all your abominations and acts of harlotry you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, struggling in your blood.

23 “Then it was so, after all your wickedness—‘Woe, woe to you!’ says the Lord God— 24 that you also built for yourself a shrine, and made a high place for yourself in every street. 25 You built your high places at the head of every road, and made your beauty to be abhorred. You offered yourself to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your acts of harlotry. 26 You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger.

27 “Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28 You also played the harlot with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. 29 Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied.

30 “How degenerate is your heart!” says the Lord God, “seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot.

Jerusalem’s Adultery

31 “You erected your shrine at the head of every road, and built your high place in every street. Yet you were not like a harlot, because you scorned payment. 32 You are an adulterous wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband. 33 Men make payment to all harlots, but you made your payments to all your lovers, and hired them to come to you from all around for your harlotry. 34 You are the opposite of other women in your harlotry, because no one solicited you to be a harlot. In that you gave payment but no payment was given you, therefore you are the opposite.”

Jerusalem’s Lovers Will Abuse Her

35 ‘Now then, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord! 36 Thus says the Lord God: “Because your filthiness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotry with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children which you gave to them, 37 surely, therefore, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved, and all those you hated; I will gather them from all around against you and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. 38 And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. 39 I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your shrines and break down your high places. They shall also strip you of your clothes, take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you naked and bare.

40 “They shall also bring up an assembly against you, and they shall stone you with stones and thrust you through with their swords. 41 They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will make you cease playing the harlot, and you shall no longer hire lovers. 42 So I will lay to rest My fury toward you, and My jealousy shall depart from you. I will be quiet, and be angry no more. 43 Because you did not remember the days of your youth, but agitated Me[a] with all these things, surely I will also recompense your deeds on your own head,” says the Lord God. “And you shall not commit lewdness in addition to all your abominations.

More Wicked than Samaria and Sodom

44 “Indeed everyone who quotes proverbs will use this proverb against you: ‘Like mother, like daughter!’ 45 You are your mother’s daughter, loathing husband and children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children; your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.

48 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.[b]

51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria[c] and all those around her, and of the daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. 58 You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations,” says the Lord. 59 For thus says the Lord God: “I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.

An Everlasting Covenant

60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’”


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/1/27 8:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Miss the point you cannot separate the city from the man, that man wants to have the city so that he can set up his throne there showing himself that he is God that he usurped the place of God, and claims the prerogatives of God. Murrcoir




Brother the reason why it matters little to me which city is being spoken of in Revelations is various. The first is simply because both Rome and Jerusalem are evidenced. The one by clear intention and the other by inference of place and purpose. The one Rome, by clear intentional meaning and the other Jerusalem by inference of the end of the age. Revelation does not stand by itself alone in this matter. We have the whole of Scripture to comprehend in it, not simply one book.

It is not bricks and mortar that will concern us in the end of this age it will be the fullness of the working of wickedness and that through a man. This man is revealed variously throughout scripture but especially by the apostles. The purposes of Revelation is as much to do with this man as it has to do with a city. The links I supplied are balanced in favour of Jerusalem precisely because it is in Jerusalem where the anti-christ will in the end be seen and comprehended. Rome however, has a part to play and was playing a part in this inevitable outcome at the time of the Lord Jesus Himself. Thereafter what was political and administrative become a “mystery” and in that John “wonders with a great wonder”. The explanation which the angel gives John, with which we are all concerning ourselves herein, does not begin with a city, it begins with a man. The revelation of which when it is finally revealed will cause all who see it to wonder whose name was not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Unless we put aside bricks and mortar we will not comprehend the deeper reality.

 2013/1/27 9:21





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