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Discussion Forum : Devotional Thoughts : Why so much fear in the land of the free?

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Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Why so much fear in the land of the free?

I have been contemplating why it is that in the land that enshrines individual freedom as it's core philosophy, that there is at the same time so much fear around that many individuals see the need to consider aggresive self defense.

I am not wanting to be contentious, but just want to put out my thoughts for folk to consider and get us thinking, so here they are...

In pushing for 'our rights' and freedom from governmental control and preferring 'small government' are we in fact taking away a provision that God has given to control the evil in society? Let me explain.
In Romans 13 it says this:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

So God has ordained civil authority (government; rulers; etc). for the following purpose...

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The purpose of civil government is to keep evil under control and stop anarchy, so we can live peaceable lives (1 Tim 2:1-2).

With a strong government that punishes wrong doing, such as stealing, murder, etc, those who are inclined to commit such crimes will be less likely to if they know they will be caught and severly dealt with. On the other hand if we want so much individual freedom and weak government, then the alternative is to seek to enforce our own protection, which in reality results in anarchy, because there is no accountability and it just feeds the cycle of fear and threat.

It is interesting to consider those Arab countries that have just 'won' their freedom from dictators. There is no denying that Mubarak of Egypt and Sadam Hussain of Iraq were dictators, but for the Christians in those countries there was quite a degree of protection and safety under them. Now with the freedom of 'democracy' from these 'dictators' the Christians are suffering lack of freedom and persecution.

I once heard it said that God's prefered government was Theocracy (God's rule), then Monarchy (earthly kings) and last would be democracy (people rule). I know this goes against the grain of our western ideology, but I think there is much truth in it. God can turn the heart of a king much easier that a whole nation of reprobate individuals that have conspired against His rule. Democracy is NOT the golden goose that we think it is.

I know that many rulers and governments (such as mentioned above) become evil tyrants, but that is why we are called to pray for them in 2 Timothy 2:1. We will get the government we deserve.

So to sum up, the thought I am presenting is that maybe our determination to seek our 'right' to be free, actually results in bondage to fear from those who use that 'freedom' to harm others.

As Christians we have the paradox that we are bond slaves of Christ, but are also the only true free persons on this earth! True freedom is not anarchy (lack of government), but submission to good government, which ultimately is only God's government of man. When Jesus comes he will 'rule the nations with a rod of iron'. Until this time He has ordained the earthly government of men to keep order.


_________________
Dave

 2013/1/18 11:59Profile









 Re: Why so much fear in the land of the free?

Good food for thought here brother. I can hear some reply with objections about abortion and so on. I would like to give another slant to abortion that is often missed I think. In America there has been about 55 million abortions, murdered children. Now, because the government has given the peoples the freedoms that they constantly strive for, then we have blamed the government for these murders, and I would agree that they are certainly, at least to a point, culpable.

But the deeper point and mostly overlooked point is that these numbers mean that there are 55 million murderers that stalk the land, a land of murder. This 55 million murders is much more a reflection of society than it is of government, for no one is forced to have an abortion, some may be manipulated but the vast majority " choose," to murder the precious children that they carry. Yet rather than look at the society that we choose to look elsewhere.

If a secular country obsesses about freedom and how no one is going to tell them what to do, least of all government, as a by-product of this we get so called " freedom of choice." ...............bro Frank

 2013/1/18 12:11
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Frank,

A good point you make. It is the democractic will of the majority.


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Dave

 2013/1/18 12:39Profile
jimur
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Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Why so much fear in the land of the free?

This thread brings to mind my long deceased Grandmother whose words of wit remain in my aging memory. She was a true bible believing born again child of the Lord and devoted many years and tears attempting to lead me to the Lord. She had acquired a very simple wisdom in her meager education and I'll always remember many of her frequently used expressions. She often stated, "Uncle Sam stands on the constitution". Once I asked her, "Granny, what does the constitution stand on". She just looked at me and smiled. Then in her never ending wit and wisdom she replied, "Why, the Word of God, of course"!
I'm old, tired, retired, archaic and still naive enough to believe her. So at this point I'd just offer this verse from scripture;

Psalm 11:3 (KJV)
3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

P.S.
I love you Granny, and I do believe!

 2013/1/19 9:34Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: appolus

Hi appolus

appolus wrote ///If a secular country obsesses about freedom and how no one is going to tell them what to do, least of all government, as a by-product of this we get so called " freedom of choice.///

If we think about it this is faulty logic,
Because the first right for a trully free nation is the right of life (in that it is only Gods right in the discission of ending innocent life)
and it is the responsibility of a truly free nation to protect the rights of all, from those whom would infringe on those rights, thus the necessity for law.

 2013/1/19 14:04Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Why so much fear in the land of the free?

I would like to add some more thoughts based on our what we read at our family bible time tonight.

PSALM 11
11:1 In the LORD I put my trust; How can you say to my soul, "Flee [as] a bird to your mountain"?
Psa 11:2 For look! The wicked bend [their] bow, They make ready their arrow on the string, That they may shoot secretly at the upright in heart.
Psa 11:3 If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?
Psa 11:4 The LORD [is] in His holy temple, The LORD's throne [is] in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
Psa 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals; Fire and brimstone and a burning wind [Shall be] the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the LORD [is] righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright.

In verse 1 David declares his trust is in the LORD and then says how can you say the following to me? (vs, 1 - 3). It seemed to me as I read this that all of verse 1 to 3 is what David is quoting as being said to Him, which in paraphrase "flee to the mountain, because the wicked are after you to kill you" In verse 3 we have a well know verse that is often quoted, "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do" but taken in context this is also a negative being thrown at David.
His response to all this is verse 4 - 7. "The LORD is in His holy temple"..."and He is watching everything, the wicked and the righteous and BECAUSE He is righteous those who follow righteousness can trust in the LORD. Our foundation is God and He cannot be destroyed.

So in summary, what this Psalm teaches us is that when wickedness abounds and even comes after us, we DO NOT have to flee to the hills, or even say 'what can the righteous do?', but we CAN trust in the LORD our God, because His foundation is NEVER destroyed. He is established for ever on His throne in heaven.

Our freedom to defend ourselves is not what will remove fear, but only trusting in a righteous God who is the refuge of the righteous.


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Dave

 2013/1/19 15:18Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Heydave

Heydave ///So in summary, what this Psalm teaches us is that when wickedness abounds and even comes after us, we DO NOT have to flee to the hills, or even say 'what can the righteous do?', but we CAN trust in the LORD our God, because His foundation is NEVER destroyed. He is established for ever on His throne in heaven.//

How would it not be hypocritical for you to ever lock a door again.

The Bible teaches to flee persecution except for when personaly led by God to do other wise, Jesus Did, Paul Did all the diciples did, all the early church did, the early anabaptist did. the early reformers did. and so would you!



 2013/1/19 15:31Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

I am just sharing what I think Psalm 11 says and teaches me.

I think you miss my point, which is where is our trust and what controls us? i.e. is it fear or trust in God? It has nothing to do with locking doors or escaping persecution if that is an option.

What I, you or anyone may do is not the point, but what God counsels in His word that has any weight.


_________________
Dave

 2013/1/19 15:50Profile









 Re:

Hi proudpapa ( I am also a proud papa:) first of all you have to define freedom. When you speak of freedom are you talking about political freedom or the freedom that is taught in the Scriptures " He who the Son sets free is free indeed."

Secondly, there is a huge difference between locking your door at night, and sleeping with a loaded shotgun under the bed ( I know a brother who does this) Dave is talking about being a slave to fear. If the Bible teaches us to flee, then would that not contradict the " stand your ground," concept?

I have stated more times than I can remember on this forum that there is a huge difference between political freedom, this is what you have in this country, and spiritual freedom, this is what we have in Christ, whether in Communist China or Capitalist America. The Body of Christ is free indeed because Jesus gave us that freedom, He died for our freedom and we have it and it is given by God and it cannot be taken away by any man at any time. The freedom that you have in America was given to you by men, and it can be taken away at any time, think about third generation Japanese Americans living here in 1941 who were rounded up and taken away violating all so called " freedoms."

One stroke of the pen and the political freedoms that you enjoy could dissapear because it was given by men and can be taken away by men............ bro Frank

 2013/1/19 16:08
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi Heydave

heydave wrote //Hi proudpapa,

I am just sharing what I think Psalm 11 says and teaches me.

I think you miss my point, which is where is our trust and what controls us? i.e. is it fear or trust in God? It has nothing to do with locking doors or escaping persecution if that is an option.

What I, you or anyone may do is not the point, but what God counsels in His word that has any weight.//

I should have used more wisdom and grace with some of my responses with you. I want to apologize

my point is what is the motivation for using locks??
If it is not fear of loosing Possessions??
or fear of recieving bodly harm??
or fear of what may happen to your family??
Than Why ever use a lock ??

The reason I ask is because so many seem to be judging those whom are not real excited with the direction that our country is going by insinuating that they are fearing and not trusting God, is this not the jist of this thread and many others presented in the last couple of days and if indeed this is the jist,
Than how is one locking ones doors not taking precautions motivated somewhat by fear,(if not by fear than what is the motivation?) and if one is advocating complete trust and fearlessness than why should they ever use a lock??

 2013/1/19 17:56Profile





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