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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

The 7 seals have yet to be broken, the 7 trumpets still haven't been blown nor have the 7 vowls of God's anger been poured out. The tribulation is coming whether we like it, believe it, want it or not.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/3/18 19:40Profile









 Re:

And what makes you think they haven't already?

What are you looking for from these 3 sets of 7 judgements?

God was silent with Israel for over 400 years, between Malachi and John the baptizer.

When you read the prophets and their message to Israel you can see why God became silent. If someone stops talking to you there is something wrong. But God didn't leave them in the dark totally. Those who understood the times, were given thru the prophet Daniel, a time line regarding the king of the north and the king of the south, and a few other series of events that would lead up to the coming of the messiah, which was the whole point of Daniel's 70 weeks.

When Christ came in the 70th week, there were 7 things that he would accomplish. Please read them yourself in Daniel 9:24.

Now if you are of the opinion of the futurist and those things that Christ accomplished when He came in the flesh is still future then we are all in trouble and we are still in our sins and our faith is in vain.

Karl

 2005/3/18 22:49









 Re:

Dear Brother,

The beginning stages of my development into this teaching was Daniel 9:27 with the 'he'. From that inception things started to snowball and all the scriptures started coming together. Mind you I was much confused about alot of things, because I had alot of the confusion from Christianity's viewpoint. There was a point in which I laid the bible on the shelf because everytime I opened it up I kept seeing scripture referring to Christ and what He had accomplished 2000 years ago. I was in a transition and in that transition there was much confusion. When you believed that bible prophecy is still in the future, the transforming of that knowledge to a greater understanding is scary.

The holy Ghost would be telling me something, and I would be arguing that that was still in the future, and that went on for a while. That is why I put the bible on the shelf, I was refusing to hear anything other then Daniel 9:27, I accepted that with open arms, in fact it was easy to receive. But this other stuff was very heavy.

In time the LORD would show me some other things and I would begin to read the bible again, I knew He wanted this matter settled, so I could move on to other things like growing in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus.

Then I came to the understanding that there is no rapture or secret rapture of whatever term is used. The reason why I don't believe this is because Christ has come, His parousia is ruling now in the heavens. Satan was thrown out of heaven, he was toppled.

The futurist say that the darkness would increase, but the bible says something different. 1John2:8 ".........Because the darkness is PAST, and the true light NOW shineth".

The futurist say that a future anti christ is coming the one they say is not yet come, but John again says in verse 18 "Little Children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as YOU have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrist; whereby we KNOW that IT IS THE LAST TIME". verse 20 "But you have an unction from the Holy One, and YOU KNOW ALL THINGS".

Now what would it profit those 2000 years ago believers to know that an antichrist would be coming sometime after 2005, 2000 years later?

You know that kind of thinking makes God out to be stupid. That he tells them to prepare for something that won't even be in thier life time and that they have an unction from the Holy One and THEY KNOW ALL THINGS. and leaves us poor souls without this knowledge or this unction, because I guaruntee you that this church world has no idea who or what this so called antichrist is or where it is coming from. They have opinions and ideas but NOT what what the early church knew.

They knew what it was, because it was given to them thru this unction.

Karl

 2005/3/18 23:28









 Re:

I am of the Pentecostal persuation. I used to lean towards the United Pentecostal arm, but I think more towards the Assemblies of God, as I believe that there is a Father and a Son and not the way the United Pentecostals believe it to be. I believe in the baptism in the holy Spirit with evidence of speaking with other tongues. I don't believe in Standards or standards of holiness, I believe they corrupt a man, and that we should live out from our born again spirit man thru the power of the holy Ghost. I believe in water baptism in Jesus name, though I believe this to be a practice that we must follow it is not something that I hold dearly as I believe we should move unto perfection (maturity) not laying again these elementary principles.

I believe that the hope of the Church is to see Christ manifest in us grown up to maturity or perfection. That all the world may know that we have love for the brethern.

I believe that that Christ loves His body regardless if it is sick or downcast. His body has been in restoration mode since the reformation and continues on to this day.

God gave Luther the revelation that the Just shall live by faith. He ran with this concept and paid for it with his life. A little later on we see the ordinance of baptism being restored thru the Anabaptist and other reformist namely the Wesleys. All these things were preparing for more to come, in the which the baptism of the holy Spirit was restored to the church with Azusa street and other places where the holy Ghost was outpouring. Then the ministry gifts became more fluent, some misused, but nevertheless used. Today we have a hunger growing into those who want to know God as thier Father, they want to know His ways, and that Christ may be formed in them. There is a deep yearning to know the heart of the Father. Isn't that what Jesus prayed that we may know Him the only true Father?

Yes indeed, Praise God, to know His ways are past finding out for those who do not understand Him, but for those who experience Him they will understand them.

Karl ;-)

 2005/3/19 0:00
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

because if they had happened, trust me, we would know...
for instance the 6th seal is broken (rev 6:12) there was a great earthquake, the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, stars fall from the sky etc. you may dismiss this as symbolic but the scriptures go on to say that the princes of the earth all hide in caves as a result. Now is any of these things had happened already we would know for one and then also we would be seeing the later judgements.

the trumpet judgments
the sirst one descibes hail with blood and fire raining on the earth resultng in the burning up of a third of all vegetation. this is yet to occur. a large mountain-like object falls into the sea and truns a third of it into blood and kills a third of all living creatures in it. I could go on but you get the drift.

Quote:
Now if you are of the opinion of the futurist and those things that Christ accomplished when He came in the flesh is still future then we are all in trouble and we are still in our sins and our faith is in vain.



well Christ did acomplish it all at the cross however that does not exempt the world from the judgement that God must visit on us to punish the wicked and also to separate His people from the enemy's people. Revelation is not so much a gloom and doom story, it actually spells out the grace of God in that He is still reaching out to as many as will receive Him in a way like never before, a way which will leave no doubt in anybody's mind. It is however gloomy for those who are not in Christ, for those of us who are we will see His provision and power in a new way. I need to ask you this coz I'm unsure where you stand, are you afraid of the tribluation and don't want it to come? If you are, you should not be coz Christ will hold you up if you are in Him.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/3/19 13:28Profile









 Re:

IronMan,

Well there might be a reservation there on the tribulation after all no one in there right mind wants to go thru any such things. But we do, for God has raked me over the coals on a number of occastions and when it looks like all hope is lost He arrives on the scene with His great salvation to pull me up out of that mess.

But to answer your question, no I am not afraid of it, I only want the truth, and I believe that I am being led in that direction concerning bible prophecy.

Brother when you quoted those scriptures to me from the book of revelations I see everything so clearly fullfilled. There is no straining to find out what this means or that means, it's so plain. I am sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I see what I read in Old Testement and relate that to the new and it's just exciting to me.

"the natural mind cannot recieve the things of the Spirit".

Now does that mean that I stop fellowhipping with you, certainly not. I have brothers and sisters here that I fellowship with who see just like you do, but do I stop fellowshipping with them or they me? no. That subject is not brought up, and when it does, I hold my peace, I say nothing I let them talk about whatever is on thier mind. I can't change their minds, so why try. I leave that to the holy Spirit as He has done with me. I write on this forum because I am writing to thousands if not millions of people that I do not know, but someone might have this understanding, and I have seen a few that do.

Karl


 2005/3/19 15:21
Matt25
Member



Joined: 2004/3/19
Posts: 69
Athens Ga

 Re:

Quote:
I believe in the baptism in the holy Spirit with evidence of speaking with other tongues.



How do you interpret Paul's rhetorical questions in 1st Corinthians 12:27-31?? Note particularly verse 30...


Quote:
I believe that there is a Father and a Son and not the way the United Pentecostals believe it to be.



Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that he, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are one?


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Matt M.

 2005/3/19 19:29Profile









 Re:

You know I hear people quote this and I can't believe how they read this and can't understand it.

Paul says in 1Corinthians 12:28 "God has set SOME in the church, 1st Apostles 2nd prophets, 3rd teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues".

Verse 29 "Are all Apostles are all Prophets and teachers are all workers of miracles?"

Verse 30 "Have all gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues, do all interpret".

Firstly everyone attacks this very little portion of scripture, "Do all speak with tongues".

The key word in this whole thing is SOME. Some means some and not all when he is talking about the ministry and the gifts.

These have nothing to do with when you are baptized with the holy Spirit, at times they may because I don't want to put God in a box. For example the 120 spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance and they were speaking in a language they never learned but those who heard them speak in their own language could. It is not recorded that they spoke in that language again. It was an initial evidence that the holy Ghost had come.

Further proof of this was when Peter and John went to Samaria (Acts 8) because they heard that all of Sameria received the word. They went to Samaria because first of all Peter had the keys of the kingdom to open to Samaria and secondly they came to lay thier hands on them so they might receive the holy Ghost for He had not fallen upon none of them only they were baptized in the name of Jesus.

When Simon SAW that by the laying of the apostle hands the holy Ghost was given he offered them money.

Now what did Simon the Sorcerer see when people were being filled with the holy Spirit?

He must have seen something that sparked his interest to offer money.

And further why did the Apostle think it necessary to come down to Samaria to lay hands on the people so they too might receive the holy Spirit when they were baptized in water in the name of Jesus?

Wasn't the baptism in water enough? According to them it was not. Which makes you wonder why people are seeking alternative routes in receiving the holy Ghost.

Now they do this because they don't believe in the speaking of unknown tongue as the spirit gives the utterance. But in doing this they are burying themselves by arguing this point because then we end up doing away with the Apostleship and the Prophets and Teachers ministry. Because it also says, "Are all Apostles are all Prophets and teachers?".

What Paul was simply saying was is everyone called to be an Apostle, is everyone called to speak in tongues. He was saying NO, not everyone is called into the same office, but He goes on to say that we should covet earnestly the best gifts.

So we all jump on the band wagon with Paul and delete all gifts and offices and we just seek Charity or Love. But He wasn't saying that either.

Paul was saying again, if you want to covet earnestly for the best gifts, I am going to show the best way to do it, follow after charity.

Charity is your doorway to the best gifts. Because by following after agape love your seeking the heart of the Father for your life, and He will bestow to you what will honour Him.

Many never take this route.

They covet the gift and the power that goes along with it, and God will not turn any man away who has faith to obtain the gifts, and we have seen throughout history of what Power does to a man who has these gifts.

As you can see this when Paul says, "Tho I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity I am nothing".

He is saying this because the gifts without charity makes you zero.

The perfect will of God would be to follow after Charity when coveting the gifts of the Spirit.

Now when you are filled with the holy Spirit YOU WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES as the Spirit gives you the utterance. That is a given, but if you don't believe in that , I can't help that if you don't. Smith Wigglesworth argued day in and day out with the revivalist who came into his town about the speaking in tongues. He claimed to have the holy Ghost. He said, "I have the holy Ghost, but I don't need these tongues", and he got to arguing about so much that that turned into hunger that he didn't care anymore, he wanted God, and finally after arguing with one of the sisters about it, he asked her to pray that he get what they had, she laid hands on his head prayed that the fire fall and she left the room while God filled him with the holy Spirit and a river began to flow out of his inner most being and burst into speaking with tongues.

My Mother and Dad who received the baptism of the holy Spirit spoke in tongues when they receive it and never spoke again afterwards, it is a sign that the holy Spirit filled an individual.

Karl

 2005/3/23 22:11
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi Matt,

Quote:
How do you interpret Paul's rhetorical questions in 1st Corinthians 12:27-31?? Note particularly verse 30...




Quote:
1Co 12:27-31 KJVR
(27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
(30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
(31) But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.



The context of ch's 12-14 don't deal with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or the initial physical evidence, but rather, the proper order of worship. The rhetorical question, in keeping with the context, can be paraphrased like: "During a service, do all speak in tongues?" The obvious answer would be no. But it does not answer whether all speak with tongues upon initially being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/23 22:46Profile





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