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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Problems with a fairy tale future tribulation

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disciplejosh
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 210
Southern California

 Re:

Just another reminder to look back at my first post and ask you to read the sir robert anderson 'The Coming Prince"


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Josh

 2005/3/6 15:15Profile
StevenL
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 40


 Re:

I must agree at least in part with brother Karl that most of the 'rapture', 'tribulation', teaching coming from our prophecy teachers today is a big basket of fairy tales derived from faulty applications of the Biblical prophecies. This is only one of the many fairy tales that the present-day church has forced upon us. And those who challenge the fairy tales are immediately accused of heresy and otherwise harangued. But God is having his sheep examine a lot of "church teachings" to discern their true character. None of us have to just swallow what "teachers" or "scholars" hand us. There's a LOT of stuff in that wonderful Word that just doesn't quiiite match up with a great deal of church doctrine today. May God's people have the courage to discern it for themselves without the approval of a mediator other than the Holy Spirit. :-)


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Steve Lindsey

 2005/3/7 13:40Profile









 Re:

Brother Mike,

We can't all just have opinions, how can any of the things that we hold true be solid, if all we have are opinions?

There is nothing wrong in being adament and a bit obstinate on those things that we hold to be the truth, even you can agree with that, for even your posts give a strong impression that what you hold as the truth is more then just a mere opinion.

And thank God that we do.

The quote that you had placed regarding my ignorance regarding Wisdom and Knowledge was not suggesting that I don't know anything, but rather I was sharing with any like minded saint that as we become less and less and Christ becomes more and more it seems that what we know in the ways of Wisdom and Knowledge I don't know much of anything. At one point in Paul's ministry in Phi 3:7-8 he counted what he had gained in the past to be dung. I truly pray that you understand this in that light.

But as regarding the Parousia of our LORD Jesus Christ, as this is what we are talking about, I know that by believing this way I am been heralded as a heretic.

But let me say this, I wish that I grew up believing this, because it has taken much considerable time and study to change my view point, as now that I look back at what I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, and how foolish I was to believe in such superstitions and fairy tales.

When you consider Daniel 9:27 yourself, Where is the 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th that today's bible teachers teach us at? Where do they get such a number and incert it between those years?

And why is the "he" an Anti-Christ? Why can't it be Jesus Christ who came to "Confirm" the covenant with many for one week the final week of the 70 weeks that was determined, the week that He was cut off in the middle of. The one who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and because of the overspreading of abomination He (Christ) shall make it desolate.

God sent Israel into captivity for 70 years according to the word of Jeremiah, God had no problem with keeping time. They stayed in Babylon
for exactly 70 years. Daniel knew that 70 years were just about up so he goes to prayer and God sends an Angel to tell him about the 70 weeks that was to be their end even to the consummation. But the Angel gives them a key when all this prophetic message of the 70 weeks would begin, it would begin from the going forth of the commandement to rebuild Jerusalem. In Which Cyrus also called Artaxeras gave the proclamation for the Jews to leave Babylon and to go back to rebuild. God moved upon Nehamiah and Esra to rebuild the wall even in troublous times, as you can read in thier books that they were having constant trouble building the wall.

From that time to 69th week there would be a series of event that Daniel unfolds when you read about the king of the south and the king of the north, these were document in the books of the maccabeas. But God gave Daniel this time line because He was going to be silent for a space of 430-90 years, no prophet from God was going to be heard of during this time. The next time we hear of any prophet that comes on the scene was John the baptizer.

When Jesus came on the scene, thus the 70th week begin to unfold. I won't dispute whether It started at His birth or when the Kingdom of God descended in bodily form like a dove and lighten upon Him. But I will add this that the law and the prophets were until John after that the Kingdom of God was preached. It suggests to me that before the 69th week is the law and the prophets and after John begins the 70th week. God has no problem bringing an age to an end.

This an exhastive work, but well rewarding, as it reveals Christ in every detail.

Thanks for your post, I enjoyed writing this.

Karl

 2005/3/17 22:30









 Re:

Thank you for your input, I went to the site and read the preface and I gathered from that what his views were. Mind you I tried to read the text, but I get easily bored when swallowed up with much theological jargon. Simplicity is where it's at for me. Thanks again.

Karl

 2005/3/17 22:41
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Future of Prophesy

Hi Karl,

Quote:
There is nothing wrong in being adamant and a bit obstinate on those things that we hold to be the truth, even you can agree with that, for even your posts give a strong impression that what you hold as the truth is more then just a mere opinion.


Sure, to a point, not on essential issue's, there's no equivocation there. Might sound like the escape valve or even laziness, but "I don't know" is just the 'opinion' I am holding to at this point in time.

Would also agree that much of what is taught nowadays is out of whack.
Quote:
The quote that you had placed regarding my ignorance regarding Wisdom and Knowledge was not suggesting that I don't know anything, but rather I was sharing...


Wanted to cut that short there. Went back through this and not sure where you got that from. I may have missed it still, could you clarify what you mean? Seems like an assumption.

Continuing:
Quote:
but rather I was sharing with any like minded saint that as we become less and less and Christ becomes more and more it seems that what we know in the ways of Wisdom and Knowledge I don't know much of anything. At one point in Paul's ministry in Phi 3:7-8 he counted what he had gained in the past to be dung. I truly pray that you understand this in that light.


Without a doubt brother, oddly, it seems we are saying the same thing when it comes to our opinions here.
Quote:
But as regarding the Parousia of our LORD Jesus Christ, as this is what we are talking about, I know that by believing this way I am been heralded as a heretic.

Again that sounds like an assumption brother, think the biggest issue I may have had was in the statement of your view being 'truth' and letting that be a dividing line if I am recalling correctly. But don't think anyone is calling for your head.

So pardon my confusion on all this Karl, not exactly sure what you meant. A lot of times we do miss the intent in our writing around here.

I know the inflection often gets lost, but the question I was asking wasn't to draw an inference from or be antagonistic, (maybe now I am assuming :) ) but honestly, what does the future unfolding look like to this particular point of view? I just have forgotten much of it and for others here as well, it might be helpful.


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Mike Balog

 2005/3/17 23:57Profile









 Re:


Karl,

From your posts, "simplicity", God available to everyone without need of an intermediary, your view that Revelations is not in the future, you sound like a Quaker. What is your faith?

Bubbaguy

 2005/3/18 10:33
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
And why is the "he" an Anti-Christ? Why can't it be Jesus Christ who came to "Confirm" the covenant with many for one week the final week of the 70 weeks that was determined, the week that He was cut off in the middle of. The one who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and because of the overspreading of abomination He (Christ) shall make it desolate.



I dont understand... are you saying that Jesus the Christ is the Anti-Christ?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/18 11:18Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

Parsly - Karl is definitely not saying that Jesus the Christ is the antichrist. A careful reading of what he has been saying shows that his point is this:

Many people today teach a future tribulation, although in his and many others viewpoints, there is not a legitimate claim for this from the scriptures. He has stated that many take a passage out of Daniel that he (Karl) believes refers to Jesus the Christ and say that it is talking about an anti-christ to come.

He is in no way saying that Jesus is not Lord, simply that many could be confusing the text of Daniel to be about Anti-christ when it could be speaking of Jesus the Christ. Our ulitmate goal, of course, is to follow the true Christ, the son of the Living God, who's testimony is the Spirit of Prophecy.

To throw my own two cents in, I am definitely intrigued by the preteriest/amillenial position, when defended using scripture and not man's clever devices. I myself hold firm to historical premillenialism (not dispensational premill, which believes in a pre-trip rapture and many other scarcely biblical concepts) because it has been clearly seen as the eschatology of many (not all) church fathers in the early ages.

I used to be a "Left-Behind" eschatology fan, until I started considering God's heart and His word. The first is a necessary acquisition in order to fully understand the second. I believe it has always been God's plan for us to be His people , His light, His salt in the earth regardless of suffering, persecution, and tribulation that may come about. An "escapist" mentality is dangerous in my perception, biblically and for the heart.

However, I definitely want to remain teachable all my life, and am open to various interpretations, especially if they are spoken clearly and biblically by men of Godly character. In your own view of preterism, a man by the name of Steve Gregg comes to mind. He hosts a daily radio-broadcast at www.narrowpath.org and also has a myriad of teachings on numerous subjects. Although I disagree with some of his eschatological viewpoints, I respect and look up to his deep love for the word and his integrity and humility of heart.

If anyone wanted a seriously biblical, step by step guide into the preterist/amill viewpoint, I would highly recommend listening to his teachings. Also, his radio program, in which people call in with random questions about the Bible that he answers thoroughly and respectfully both to the text and the caller.

My main issue with the preterist viewpoint is this: God's heart and prophetic purpose for National Israel. Preterism holds no future fulfillment of God's ultimate promise to restore Israel to Himself, but simply says that we are now Israel and thats all there is. I am in agreement with Paul that we are now grafted in to the vine of Christ, the Israel of God, and are therefore partakers of the promise and the seed of Abraham in Christ Jesus. However, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, and although present day Jewry rejects Messiah and is apostate, I believe that God will bring an ultimate and future restoration to His covenant people of old.

Not for their sakes, but for His namesake in keeping His word (see Nehemiah 9). Additionally, Christ Himself said he would not return until the leaders of Israel declared "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!" As Paul says, their acceptance into the Body of Christ will be "life from the dead"! (Romans 11)

It is God's great desire to love and chase after us, wooing us back to Himself, and I believe He will do that with natural Israel; although it will take some severe Amos 9 judgment before that is to happen.

In that vein, I hold definitely to Art Katz' view of eschatology, though I know some would disagree.

Without going too long :), I appreciate this discussion, and may we all by grace in faith seek the Father's heart through His word, and the revelation of Jesus as the means of understanding prophecy concerning the "end of days".

Remember, 1 John was written after John returned from Patmos, and after seeing the end of all things his greatest desire and teaching was "Little children, love one another."

May that be our heart's cry as well.


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Ryan Couch

 2005/3/18 12:35Profile
couch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/29
Posts: 62
College Station, TX

 Re:

Parsly - does this make sense? are you clear from confusion?

Karl - what else has brought you to this understanding of eschatology?

- curious


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Ryan Couch

 2005/3/18 14:29Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Yup, thanks.. I understand his viewpoint.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/3/18 18:29Profile





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