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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon

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 Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon



In his last message as pastor for Preaching and Vision at Bethlehem Baptist Church, John Piper condemned prosperity preachers for enticing worshippers into a faith that's not real Christianity.

"If you entice people with wealth, ... ease, health, chipper, bouncy, light-hearted, playful, superficial banter in your worship service posing as joy in Christ, you will attract people, oh yeah, you can grow a huge church that way. But Christ will not be seen in his glory and the Christian life will not be seen as the Calvary road that it is," said Piper on Sunday.

After 32 years of preaching at Bethlehem in Minneapolis, Piper handed the baton to Jason Meyer, who will be installed on Jan. 20. ...

read more: http://www.christianpost.com/news/piper-denounces-prosperity-preachers-playful-worship-in-last-sermon-87588/


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2013/1/3 10:10Profile
rufnrust
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Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 227
Indiana

 Re: Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon

Does Mr Piper believe that anyone who is more joyful in their walk with Jesus than he or his group is lacking authentic joy?

I was under the clear impression that Jesus wanted us to experience fullness of joy. I wonder what that would look like?


Ruf


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Russell

 2013/1/3 14:07Profile
Keylla
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Joined: 2012/6/17
Posts: 26
Brazil

 Re: Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon

Can you say me about dr. Charles Stanley ? is he trustfull? Does he preach the right gospel ?


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Keylla Amaral

 2013/1/3 16:38Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

This is what Piper said:
____________________________________________________________
"If you entice people with wealth, ... ease, health, chipper, bouncy, light-hearted, playful, superficial banter in your worship service posing as joy in Christ, you will attract people, oh yeah, you can grow a huge church that way."
____________________________________________________________

Maybe you misunderstood?

I know what Piper is talking about. I have attended services like this and I left feeling like my time was wasted. The worst was when we attended a Christian wedding service where the officiating pastor talked like a comedian all the way through. Now I love humor and love to laugh - all who know me will agree to that - BUT there is a place and a time to be serious. I did not say one cannot say anything humorous in worship service but when it becomes a comedian's routine, I think I will go elsewhere. It just does not seem to be holy or something. The Holy Spirit seems to be absent.

My opinion..


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Sandra Miller

 2013/1/3 21:42Profile
Robert_79
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Joined: 2007/3/13
Posts: 23
Dallas

 Re:

I realize that this is not entirely on topic, but is in reply to Keylla's question: I want to be very careful in how I speak about others, but I also want to be bold to defend the truth. Much of what Charles Stanley teaches sounds true, but there is a deadly poison mixed with it. I do not believe that what he teaches is the real gospel.

In his book, Eternal Security, he makes this statement:
"There are many similarities between salvation and marriage. A person does not become married by acting married. Neither does one gain a divorce by acting divorced. A man and woman are married by entering into a legal contract. Obtaining a divorce is a legal matter as well. Whether they ever act married or not is irrelevant. I have known several couples who separated and adopted lifestyles that gave no evidence of their marital status. Yet they were as married then as the day they said their vows…Salvation, as we have seen, occurs at a moment in time when we by faith accept God’s free gift…Just as there are married people who acts as if they are not, so there are Christian who show no evidence of their Christianity as well. But that does not change their eternal status, any more than a lost man can change his eternal destiny by acting saved.”

Stanley says that there are Christians who show no evidence of their Christianity. But Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits." In 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5, Paul taught that the unrighteous would not inherit the kingdom. In both passages, he says, "Do not be deceived." Those who teach that the unrighteous can inherit the kingdom are deceivers.

What Charles Stanley and many like him teach is that salvation happens at a point in time and we are justified with God and can never lose our salvation. But what he does not teach is that true salvation always produces fruit. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead. This kind of faith will not save. We are not saved by our works, but true faith will produce good works. But Mr. Stanley says that there are Christians who show no evidence of their Christianity. This is a blatant rejection of Scripture and a serious one, as this doctrine is giving false hope to millions who have not been born again.

For a deeper understanding of this subject, I would highly recommend Charles Leiter's book Justification and Regeneration or any sermons on sermonindex by Paul Washer.

Ezekiel 13:22 has this to say about the false prophets: "Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life."

Mr. Stanley and many like him are strengthening the hand of the wicked by promising them that they can continue living in sin, loving sin, and still have eternal life. May we pray for them as Paul did, even with tears, for they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.

Above all, spend time reading God's Word humbly and prayerfully. So many are deceived by preachers twisting texts or ignoring the great themes of Scripture because they do not know God's Word. May the Lord protect you, me, and all on this forum from deception in the days when iniquity abounds and the love of most grows cold. He is able to do this in our lives, and may God continue to raise up many godly men (such as those whose sermons are on here) who are preaching the true Gospel with the power of the Holy Spirit. Christ is worthy!

 2013/1/4 3:56Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

dear robert, i do not think you read or heard brother stanley state that you can be loving sin and living in blatant sin and be saved. he would probably say that they were never saved. this is a topic that this site would rather have not brought up for it stirs fights that have not been resolved since the reformation. dr. stanley is a great man of God that holds true to baptist doctrine.jimp

 2013/1/4 6:11Profile









 Re: Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon

Quote:
"There are many similarities between salvation and marriage. A person does not become married by acting married. Neither does one gain a divorce by acting divorced. A man and woman are married by entering into a legal contract. Obtaining a divorce is a legal matter as well. Whether they ever act married or not is irrelevant. I have known several couples who separated and adopted lifestyles that gave no evidence of their marital status. Yet they were as married then as the day they said their vows…Salvation, as we have seen, occurs at a moment in time when we by faith accept God’s free gift…Just as there are married people who acts as if they are not, so there are Christian who show no evidence of their Christianity as well. But that does not change their eternal status, any more than a lost man can change his eternal destiny by acting saved.” Robert_79.



Sometimes the difficulty we have in believing or accepting a truth lies not just in the fact that truth is only ever really comprehended when the revelation of it is met with a willingness to obey it, but also in the way that truth is then presented by those who have laid hold of it.

This presentation by Mr Stanley is a good case in point. In sharing this I do so because I happen to agree with the underlying truth which Mr Stanley is making. Namely that there is an eternal security in believing in Christ name. However to use marriage in this way is to really miss the reality of what in fact marriage is before God. If marriage were simply a matter of a certificate then it would be necessary to agree that God Himself can be deceived. Just as men are deceived when a man presents a certificate of marriage but has in reality never known his legal wife. We could argue all day long about whether or why some one might have a certificate but have no actual union of bodies. Well God cannot be deceived and so such a certificate without union would be a falsehood. Which begs the question what is marriage before God?

Marriage is the union of one man and one women period. The certificate whilst necessary is just that a certificate which is given as a public witness of an intention. All reasonable presumption is that they will go off and the marriage will be consummated. But if no such consummation took place the man and the women would not be married before God they would only be married before men. This may seem like a mere semantic because in reality the man and the women in such an instance would be treated as though they were married regardless of their personal physical relationship. In the same way whilst divorce is a certificate, it too may be just that. It may be legal and so on but if for example the party who was rejected had not in fact committed adultery and the one seeking the divorce had lied, then before God they would be still married yet before men they would be divorced. Perhaps it would be inevitable that the one doing the rejecting would go on to be joined to another woman, but this is besides the point.

With God there is no such lack of reality. In speaking about the life relationship between a believer and Christ no certificate is issued. If you like the evidence is in the one who says they believe. The reality of divorce is not the certificate, it is the adultery. The certificate is just the outward evidence of it. In the same way the outward evidence of having received eternal life are fruits of eternal life. Whilst it was never God' will that men and women divorce the only scriptural reality which is recognised as a basis for issuing a certificate of divorce is adultery.

The reality of marriage is not a certificate it is union between one man and one women. The reality of divorce is not a certificate it is adultery (the union between one man and another women) and the reality of eternal life is fruits of eternal life. We should concern ourselves with reality according to God and not men otherwise we will simply loose sight of what is real and what is imagined to be real.

 2013/1/4 7:34
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7421
Mississippi

 Re:

Really, then comparing marriage with salvation muddles both issues... Am not sure scriptures draws parallels between the two, does it?


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Sandra Miller

 2013/1/4 9:52Profile









 Re: Piper Denounces Prosperity Preachers, Playful Worship in Last Sermon

Quote:
Really, then comparing marriage with salvation muddles both issues... Am not sure scriptures draws parallels between the two, does it? GinnyRose



I wonder if all of us don't sometimes suffer from a sound idea, but a broken way to explaining it. Certainly I am often disappointed with my own efforts. If there is a correlation between the union of a man and a woman and salvation it is several and not a single idea. For example salvation is in reality Christ Himself. Christ is our saviour and it is in receiving Him that we are saved. Clearly to become one flesh with a woman, from the man's perspective has to be the foundation of marriage in reality of experience, but if there is no experience how can there be a true marriage. "Know yea not that he who is joined to a harlot becomes one flesh". If this is true of a harlot then it cannot be less true for ones wife. The scripture is correspondingly pressed to an understanding regarding faithfulness to Christ. It has to do with idolatry and as is often the case in Scripture harlotry also means faithlessness. Faithlessness means adultery and sleeping with a harlot or prostitute is the same as taking her as your wife.

The mystery is not that a man and a women become one flesh, because this is amply evidenced by our children. The mystery is that Christ is one with His church. In this Christ is the head and the Church is the body of Christ. Christ in all and all is Christ. Adam was one man and Eve was one women. Clearly they could not have been faithless to one another nor to anyone else. They were physically set so as to determine faithfulness. Yet they were capable of being faithless towards God. Marriage if taken in its perfect intention of God is by definition holy and therefore it is by definition a matter of separateness. The putting aside of the wives and children when Judah came out of exile speaks of this same reality. It seems harsh on the face of it to say this yet the connection between faithfulness and faith is often linked scripturally to marriage and cannot be denied. The question at the root of the concern which prompted my response had to do with whether salvation could be taken as an eternal confidence from the outset of faith in Christ. I say yes it can. Yet so what I hear. There is the difficulty in seeking to use marriage itself as an example of union and persistence of outcome, if marriage is held in such contempt. God is not so faithless and His intentions never change. He intended Adam and Eve to remain faithful for life and He intends to remain faithful through Christ unto eternity. Beyond that..............

 2013/1/4 10:22
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Marriage and Salvation.. the closes thing I can find is in Ephesians 5..Christ and the Church
andy


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andy

 2013/1/4 10:25Profile





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