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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Current 'Grace' teaching that is emerging - some concerns!

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I was wondering if anyone would like to suggest a meaning for grace?



Mercy is when we don't get what we deserve.
Grace is when we do get what we could never deserve.

but grace is not only God's attitude towards us but His enabling power.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/3 13:30Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Paulus
I think we may be misunderstanding the nature of Abraham's 'discussion'. The relationship between God and Abraham could never have degenerated into the bargaining of the bazaar. You'll find some of my thoughts here.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/3 13:39Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

One may think that Abraham's discourse with God failed in the end, for Sodom was destroyed, but not so! My favorite part of this story is when Abraham's prayer (which was for Lot) is granted, and God is merciful to Lot, saving him even though he is hesitant. God literally grabs him by the arm and pulls him out of there without Lot's cooperation.

Genesis 19:16 - [i]"When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them."[/i]

God granted Abraham's prayer. The power of prayer.

In Christ,
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2005/3/3 14:56Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

Nasher wrote:
Was John the Baptist's birth predicted in the scriptures?


Yes
Quote:

Did it need Zacharias' prayer to be fulfilled?


No

Nice and easy those two, how did I do. :smart:


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/3 15:02Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
but grace is not only God's attitude towards us but His enabling power.

I think in Ephesians it talks about accessing this grace by faith. Can you imagine if we just had enough faith to believe that his awesome grace is available to us? I remember listening to a compilation called Selah. One part goes ' we would hardly have stepped out of time into eternity and gazed upon enternity and said 'My God look at all the riches there are in Christ Jesus, and I've come to the judgement seat a pauper'.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/3 15:10Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Grace and prayer

Grace is the power of God to do His Word ,it's free and we don't deserve it. Prayer in the whole scope of things won't change God's ultimate time table on major events like the second coming of Christ ,or the appearing of the anti-christ ect....BUT we all live in a world where our prayers do matter!There is nothing of any significance that ever happens without prayer.Jesus rose early in the morning to pray and He said He was the way, good place to start copying him is in our prayer life. Show me a man or woman with great word knowledge and no prayer life and I'll show you a man or woman who neither knows God nor His Word, a true pharisee. The man or woman of prayer not only has power with God but makes hell itself tremble!


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D.Miller

 2005/3/3 15:28Profile
PTywama3
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Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re: prayer

*Edit: Eh, rather than being antagonistic, I'll sum up my reply to Zeke0.

God may not need our help, but indeed we are supposed to try.

Aside from that - doesn't grace go hand in hand with mercy? AKA the way to step beyond? Mercy being God's willingness to forgive us (one aspect, as I understand it.) I haven't seen that word used on this particular thread, and I've always been taught that the two are linked.


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David Reynolds

 2005/3/3 16:01Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Nice and easy those two, how did I do.


Hi Zekeo
I would say 50% hit rate. I don't want to rationalise prayer or give the impressions that I have all the answers, but there are some things that God will only do in the ways He has specified. The example I usually quote is the tethered ass of which Jesus said "I have need of him". Zechariah had spoken the word of God that this must be Christ's means of entry into Jerusalem, so consequently "The Lord hath need..." If He has determinded to do certain things in certain ways He will not do them in another. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; [u]I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel[/u], to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD. (Eze 36:35-38 KJV)This is God stating the necessary conditions for His will to be accomplished. Without the fulfilment of the conditions there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.God hardly gives His Spirit even to those whom He has established in grace, if they do not pray for it on all occasions, not only once, but many times. 'God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God, without praying for it themselves (which is exceeding rare), were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer. Wesley: Plain Account of Christian Perfection.



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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/3 17:32Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
This is God stating the necessary conditions for His will to be accomplished. Without the fulfilment of the conditions there can be no fulfillment of the prophecy.

I think this is again a case where we are looking at the same thing from different angles.

Getting back to John the Baptist and Zacharia. It was GOds will to send a Elijah type restorer, if my scriptural uasage is not correct forgive me. That is a given. The next phase then is who will fulfill this scripture, well if Zacharia was not available he would have found somoeone else to fulfill his plan.

My understanding on this is based on the premises that this world will end and Jesus will be crowned king of all. Thats a given, it will happen. God will find someone somewhere whose heart is committed to him, to meet and fulfill his requirements.

I am not saying that our prayers are not vital in fact without them there are allots of things that wouldn't happen. That reminds me of something else, your quote from Mr Wesley is absolutley true in regards to our [b]personal[/b] pilgrimage. For Gods will in my life to be outworked I must pray and seek his face.

So to sum up, if Zacharia hadn't of prayed and put himself in a position to hear God, God would have found someone else, maybe his cousin or something. Its the same with the donkey, GOd had something to accomplish and that donkey was at the right place at the right time to be used by the master. Why that donkey, the donkey was in a position to be used by him. And that is the same with us, God doesn't need us, he wants to fullfill his will, and if we put ourselves in position to be used, he will use us.

I hope that this makes sense as to what I am saying.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/3/4 0:31Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am not saying that our prayers are not vital in fact without them there are allots of things that wouldn't happen. That reminds me of something else, your quote from Mr Wesley is absolutley true in regards to our personal pilgrimage. For Gods will in my life to be outworked I must pray and seek his face.

I think you are right to make the distinction.


Quote:
Getting back to John the Baptist and Zacharia. It was GOds will to send a Elijah type restorer, if my scriptural uasage is not correct forgive me. That is a given. The next phase then is who will fulfill this scripture, well if Zacharia was not available he would have found somoeone else to fulfill his plan.

I wonder... if somethings did not happen because God found no one to stand in the gap? This is not a stick to beat ourselves over the head with... if I had prayed more... but just a thought. I think of such verses as 'he could do no mighty work there' (Mark 6:5) seems to imply that He [u]could not[/u] do what He would have done as a result of the conditions not being what He needed.

I was meditating on this in the last Abraham devotional. In one sense the whole of the Bible after Genesis 24 was dependent upon Rebekah saying 'yes'. I know it is mind blowing, and God might have taken a different route, but on the face of it without Rebekah's consent the royal route of the Seed would have stopped with Isaac. I think we are nothing and nobodies but we are extremley significant nothings and nobodies. :-D

The thing about the donkey is that categoric statement "the Lord hath need...". Certainly this is condescension but in an extraordinary way, for certain purposes, God has made Himself dependent upon us donkies!


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/4 4:09Profile





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