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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Concerning the evidence of our new birth

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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Concerning the evidence of our new birth

I must reserve myself the right to amend this thread as fresh thinking by you all might deem it necessary. . . ))__but it has to be fresh. )))

It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we are able to receive the Holy Spirit to make effectual the gift of the God’s salvation and this by the impartation, the quickening life of Jesus Christ, which puts ‘the beyond’ within, and immediately the beyond has come within, it rises up to ‘the above,’ and we are lifted into the domain where Jesus lives. (John 3:5.) This transition however, can only be of a new born whose ambition is set to cultivate the Vision of God. (cf Proverbs 29:18) He knows that to live in the Vision is to live in the Reality of God with the Actuality being the eventual result of His Gracious Gift, “so great Salvation”. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us who claim His Name that we learn how to reckon ourselves seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: to the intent that . . . the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church [by] the manifold wisdom of God lived from us. cf Ephesians 2:6; 3:10 (KJV) Without the vision imparted to us by the pursuit of our knowing the Father [per John 17:3] the new born of Him are, wasted. They are of non-effect in a world where many unredeemed folk are looking for answers from a God they have been told, loves them__and are going away, “hungry”.


 2012/11/28 7:37Profile
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 Re: Concerning the evidence of our new birth

Quote:
It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we are able to receive the Holy Spirit to make effectual the gift of the God’s salvation



This is not a true statement for the Spirit of God is given to us by grace and not by works. We can hinder the filling of the Spirit by grieving Him, living in sin, etc but intially we are given the Spirit of God purely by grace and faith. Thus us salvation is sure and our hope is sure as we put our faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work and not in our repentance or need to have spiritual hunger.

All true spiritual hunger comes from an appreciation and deep thankfulness from the love of God in Jesus Christ.

"We love Him because HE FIRST loved us." - 1 John 4:19


and it is only because of the "mercy" of God in Jesus Christ that we have the desire to live for Him:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, BY THE MERCIES OF GOD, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." - Romans 12:1


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/11/28 9:33Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by sermonindex on 2012/11/28 6:33:34

Quote:
It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we are able to receive the Holy Spirit to make effectual the gift of the God’s salvation



I believe I used the word "effectual" to cover that base of disagreement__and that it might be understood that I mean it to be in the afterwards of our salvation which is by the grace of God__by our faith.

Thank you that I might make it more clear.

 2012/11/28 9:40Profile
dvndsn
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Joined: 2011/8/3
Posts: 86
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we are able to receive the Holy Spirit to make effectual the gift of the God’s salvation



I agree with SI on this, the Holy Spirit has already began a work within the unregenerate long before we get to them to witness to them. We do nothing to receive it, it is purely by God's grace that He imparts to us His Holy Spirit. I see the statement saying "let me prepare myself to receive Christ" when in fact we do nothing to deserve Him to begin with. The moment you say "only when we get hungry", and "we are able to receive", implies we have some sort of righteousness within us before God placed the Holy Spirit within us. None have done good to receive Him, not one.

Furthermore, we cannot ask for mercy, for in doing so we take the grace from God's hands in giving it. Who are we to ask for His mercy, when we so blatantly sin in the face of God?

Great post by the way, definitely thought provoking.

 2012/11/28 11:01Profile
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 Re:


It is the fact that those who do not fully believe in the finished work of Christ need to ensure their salvation is SURE by some means. Therefore there are so many "extra" steps to ensure one is saved. This is a sad reality that many brethren are continually questioning their hope of salvation and looking to extra confirmed signs rather than on the work of Christ Himself.

If Christ does not save us fully who does? If we are required to have a level of righteousness to be saved, how much? I believe there needs to be a surety of confidence in the blood of Christ and His sacrifice for us on the Cross. It does not just begin a road of salvation, rather "it" has saved us.

God never owes us anything but we owe God everything in light of the Cross. God has and will never be a man's debtor. It is all of grace, grace, grace.

And this grace will work in us effectually to please Him in light of Him saving us (past tense) by His mercy.


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 2012/11/28 12:52Profile
White_Stone
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
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 Re:

Yes, this is a good post.

ws


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Janice

 2012/11/28 13:49Profile









 Re:

SI said

Quote:
This is a sad reality that many brethren are continually questioning their hope of salvation and looking to extra confirmed signs rather than on the work of Christ Himself.

If I may, I think the reason why the questioning is because Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them". There is a genuine fear of not bearing fruit, hence the need to affirm ones salvation.

Among the Pentecostal/Charismatic varieties the need to have some gift gives the person that added bonus that God has favoured them.

While many believe that having some duty within a Church structure helps with that affirmation.

And I know God must wink at this ignorance and has compassion on people that look to that sense of belonging.

If we continue on in faith this affirmation becomes evident. Even the greatest of preachers have been down this road of seeking some sign that God was with them and some of those signs were granted.

Condemnation is not the thing that any of who look for some sign or fruit or even a gift, what we need is a correction in our teaching or to be reminded on how we entered into this life in the first place.

 2012/11/28 14:29
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by dvndsn on 2012/11/28 8:01:21

Quote:
It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we are able to receive the Holy Spirit to make effectual the gift of the God’s salvation



I agree with SI on this, the Holy Spirit has already began a work within the unregenerate long before we get to them to witness to them. We do nothing to receive it, it is purely by God's grace that He imparts to us His Holy Spirit. I see the statement saying "let me prepare myself to receive Christ" when in fact we do nothing to deserve Him to begin with. The moment you say "only when we get hungry", and "we are able to receive", implies we have some sort of righteousness within us before God placed the Holy Spirit within us. None have done good to receive Him, not one.


Read it as being for one who is already saved.

Quote:
Furthermore, we cannot ask for mercy, for in doing so we take the grace from God's hands in giving it. Who are we to ask for His mercy, when we so blatantly sin in the face of God?



I have already been VERY clear about initial salvation and how it is accomplished so it is not about mercy. It is about revealed evidence of being born again. Again, I am speaking of the afterwards of salvation. .

Quote:
Great post by the way, definitely thought provoking.



I believe this verse should be taught as a prerequisite to salvation for anyone about to say the sinners prayer:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

I believe it would settle a lot of issues especially when the word "know" is scripturally defined.

Thank you.. . . )

Here is something from Chambers that might shed light on the thread:

July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side.… Mark 6:45–52.

"We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.

What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.

God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.

God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious."


Chambers, O. (1986). My utmost for his highest: Selections for the year. Grand Rapids, MI: Oswald Chambers Publications; Marshall Pickering.

 2012/11/28 15:22Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

this is a good topic and good replys thanks

it is strange that we seem to a aply the words of jesus
;;you will no them by there fruits ;;;

to our selfs at times ,to give us asurence or confedence in our new birth ,,only to have christ strip us of fruit and prune our branches leaving us in a state ,wherby we must look back to him for our only hope and trust only in him ,and not at all in the fruit

im guilty of that

even tho we may have good evedence of salvation in our life
like a genuine repentence from a sinfull fleshy life stile

being set free by christ from beseting sins

a living faith ,a scence of the presence of god

we may know the joy unspeakable ,full of glory
we may know the peace that passes all understanding

we my have good works ,even ministry

but when we look to these to get asurence for our selfs ,,,


we sin


oh that the lord might keep my eyes upon him and his cross and his promises amen

 2012/11/29 1:37Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
SI said
Quote:

This is a sad reality that many brethren are continually questioning their hope of salvation and looking to extra confirmed signs rather than on the work of Christ Himself.

If I may, I think the reason why the questioning is because Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them". There is a genuine fear of not bearing fruit, hence the need to affirm ones salvation.

Among the Pentecostal/Charismatic varieties the need to have some gift gives the person that added bonus that God has favoured them.

While many believe that having some duty within a Church structure helps with that affirmation.

And I know God must wink at this ignorance and has compassion on people that look to that sense of belonging.

If we continue on in faith this affirmation becomes evident. Even the greatest of preachers have been down this road of seeking some sign that God was with them and some of those signs were granted.

Condemnation is not the thing that any of who look for some sign or fruit or even a gift, what we need is a correction in our teaching or to be reminded on how we entered into this life in the first place.



Very good points. I might add an analogy.

Have you ever seen a tomato vine struggling to bear tomatoes? If it is planted in the soil and receives water, it will naturally bear fruit. There may be other plants that resemble tomato vines, but in the end I am assured that it is a tomato vine because I see tomatoes. We do not become Christians because we bear fruit, but we bear fruit because we are Christians (branches plugged into the real vine.)


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Travis

 2012/11/29 8:07Profile





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