| Re: Teaching them "to obey all things as much as I have commanded you." |
While I appreciate makrothumia's reply, I would just say that it may needlessly complicate this discussion, and here is why i think that. The OP is obvioulsy about Catholicism, and while I myself touched on some of the claims of those in the " Protrstant world," the main issue is about what Catholics teach and how that stands in the light of Scripture.
The argument that Makrothumia just put forward is a subject in and of itself and it would be a good subject. Yet, the Catholic world and the doctrines and dogmas of men do not come into this category of obeying or not obeying. Catholicism is, at its basest form, just simply and completely deceived as to who Jesus is and how He encounters men. Certainly He does not encounter men in the form of the Eucharist which is the center piece of Catholicism and which by the way, was often the last question which decided the fate of countless martyrs over multiple centuries, the question being " Is the Eucharist Jesus?" and the obvious answer being " no."
So Andie, let me ask you this question as I always find it helpful. When you hear the phrase " born again," what does that speicifcally mean to you? What does it mean to be born again which, as I know you know, Jesus said that we must be to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? I think it would be helpful for all to hear your definition.......bro Frank
| 2012/11/26 16:31|
| 2012/11/26 18:43|
| Re: |
Isn't strange that we have the term " practising Catholic." I think the propestant world needs such a phrase :) Anyway, to answer your question I would say, yes. If one is practising Catholicism, one is working his way to heaven which is impossible. If a man or a woman has genuinly been born again, he will have the Spirit of truth in Him and the Spirit will lead and guide him or her into all truth, this is the Word of God. Now, there may be a process of coming out, I can certainly see that, but that would be for the very few. The vast majority of the millions of Catholics who have discovered the true Jesus as apposed to Eucharist, leave immediately.
I was asked by the dean of a " Christian college" one time why Catholics who come to Jesus in Mexico immediately leave the Catholic church and no longer want to be identified as a Catholic. I was amazed at this mans lack of knowledge and discerment. As I stated before, this is the slow march to the great whore church.........bro Frank
| 2012/11/26 19:03||Profile|
| Re: Isaac|
That's (blink) Justification for you. Catholics, will argue there believes in idolotry, as if it were some sort of cosmic power in the Universe that would lead them towards Salvation and entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.
You must be born again. Born of the Spirit. It is the Spirit of God that will lead you into all Truth. Can anyone enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? "no."
Never-the-less, your topic is based on Justification, primarly Catholisim -- But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forebearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles to, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. (Rom 3:21)
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Gal 5:6)
Not faith in and of itself, but faith expressed through love.
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Gal 5:16)
| 2012/11/26 19:16||Profile|
| Re: |
hi, the key is do you know Him? does He know you? or do you have an intimate relationship with Jesus that produces fruit.i used to minister with a priest who would tell his testimony of being a priest and not knowing Jesus and then the ensueing love affair with Him that changed his life forever. Jesus told them "depart from me ....for I never knew you.we must have love for the catholic people to witness salvation even though the church is full of false and damaging teachings. i have seen hundreds of catholics get saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. one sunday i brought a whole convent of nuns and a jesuit brother to my church to be baptized. it is true that most leave the bondage of romanism, but some have stayed to witness the truth of the message of the cross to others.people need the Lord.jimp
| 2012/11/26 19:36||Profile|
| Re: Can Catholics Have the Assurance of Salvation? by Dan Delzell|
greg this is why i was emphising correct theoligy is important ,,,,,this artical is a good example of exactly what i was talking about ,yet some how people didnt agree with it,,,,,,catholics have bad theoligy ,,so they redefined grace and changed the gosple in the process
jehova witnesses are another example of bad theoligy ,regarding bad christoligy ,bad phunomaoligy ,and a works based salvation ,,,,
we need good sound theoligy Brother Gary.
No amount of theology will save anyone. To imagine that it is so is in itself evidence of a lack of assurance of salvation. Assurance for most truly born again believers comes and goes like the wind which blows where it wills. Unless the Holy Spirit gives you a measure of revelation as to the substance of assurance you will only ever really know it when your deeds are truly righteous. Even then it may be of the mind and a deceived heart even to the one who is born again. This is because many lack true revelation as to the utter completion of the finished work of the Cross of Christ.
For some brethren they seem assured when their works are good and condemned when their works are bad. Neither is profitable. The one is vanity and the other is fear and a lack of knowledge. This is true for the Roman Catholic as it is for anyone who believes that Jesus was raised from the dead. This fact alone is an incomprehensible challenge to the natural mind and demands examination continuously on the part of the one who believes it. It cannot be believed unless the Father Himself reveals it by the Holy Spirit. For this reason there are many in the Roman Church who are as much saved as any of those who post on this site yet vainly imagine them selves to be spiritually minded.
Either understand this or else in the end you will have to give an account to God Himself as to why you have rejected that which He has called clean! Mercy lies in a knowledge of that which is to come. Rome will be utterly destroyed and the sheep will be scattered. This is because it has been apostate from the beginning. Yet for all that is has an end time prophetic purpose which is scarily understood by anyone.
Theology will accomplish nothing of itself.
| 2012/11/26 19:39|
| Re: |
With all due respect, I am not going to read the tract. As you know, I could give you any number of tracts in response to any question, but we are having a discussion, not an exchange of tracts. So Andie, it seems that you believe that when you were baptized as an infant then you were born again. Can you tell us in your own words if that is true?..........Frank
| 2012/11/26 19:59|
| Re: |
I can't force you to read the tract, but the reason I posted it is that it explains the biblical basis for the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration and how the doctrine was changed by the Anabaptist branch of the reformation. My belief about being born again is the Churches belief about being born again.
I would appreciate your feedback on how you disagree with the Catholic scriptural basis for this doctrine if you could read it.
You asked, do I believe I was born again when baptized as an infant? The answer is yes. I believe as a 3 year old when I was Baptized in a Ecumenical Church (Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian) I was born again or from above.
Needless to say once I was old enough to be accountable I was not in any relationship with the Lord. My family didn't pray, read the Bible or attend Church except for funerals and occasionally Christmas. I was what you would call supernaturally dead.
| 2012/11/26 21:43|
| Re: |
As an ex-catholic, I must put in my 2 cents. I went through 8 years of catholic school, and learned how to be a devout catholic, however, there was no way I was saved and going to heaven. The bible is clear on that.
There are also devout buddists, hindus, etc, who do amazingly good works, and they aren't going to heaven either. Do they show some good "fruit" as far as being loving, kind, etc? Yes, but according to the bible they will not enter heaven.
It is only by acknowledging that Jesus is Lord, and asking forgiveness of your sins, that you are saved.
I do believe there are some catholics that have personally done that, but after doing so, they should leave the catholic church so they get solid doctrine. Some of them don't leave because of various reasons.
| 2012/11/26 22:36||Profile|
| Re: |
So you believe that to be born again means to be sprinkled by some water as an infant or small child. Thanks again for your clarity. More than anything I wanted others on this site to see what Catholics actually believe when they use the term " born again."
So brothers ans sisters, you can see the vast gulf that exists between Catholics and those who are genuinly born again, that is why it is always important to define terms when speaking to catholics.
Andie, I have no idea what you mean when you use the phrase " supernaturally dead." If you give me your own understanding of why water baptism means to be born again then I will respond Andie. I am not trying to be difficult, but on matters of life and death one must be very sure and if not being born again means you go to hell, then you Andie, must be very clear in your head what it means and not just refer back to a tract or a youtube or a page from a Catholic apologetic site. Does that make sense. After all, its your eternal soul that we are speaking of......... Frank
| 2012/11/26 22:37|