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Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 If we say Jesus did it all for our salvation and there is nothing for us to do . . .

. . . with regards to it then I would have to conclude our new birth is but to reveal our allegiance to Him. Does that sound right? __but then how do we do that?

 2012/11/13 16:03Profile
MichaelLiao
Member



Joined: 2011/4/24
Posts: 185
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re: If we say Jesus did it all for our salvation and there is nothing for us to do .

Dear Croref,

To answer your question, yes, Christ did it all and there is nothing left for us to do for our salvation. The law of God brings the old man/sinful man to the end of himself and leads him to the Cross of Christ. That's why we emphasize the fact that we rest in Christ. In and of our own ability and willingness, we cannot obey God's commands. We deserve wrath for that, but God's salvation is All of Grace, meaning He does it all. He sent His Son to live out the commands perfectly on our behalf and Christ dies under the wrath of God for our sin against Him. Therefore, Christ's perfect righteousness is given to us freely as a gift, while all our sins went onto Christ. The more we recognize what Christ has done for us and that there is nothing left for us to do, we are in gratitude and we will live a life that is pleasing (have allegiance) to God because of what He has done.

Secondly, to answer your question on allegiance, God is the One who makes sure that His children will be faithful to Him:

Jeremiah 32:40 reads, "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me."

In the New Covenant, God Himself promises to keep our end of the Covenant by making us obedient and faithful to Him. If any of it depended on us to be faithful, we would fail miserably. But God calls us to rest in His promises, that He will fulfill in and through us the allegiance that we desire. It does not depend on us, but God.

"Your people will offer themselves freely (willingly)
on the day of your power,
in holy garments;
from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will be yours." - Psalm 110:3

Here is another verse, God is the One to cause His people to offer themselves freely/willingly in allegiance to Him.

Thus, salvation is depended not upon yourself to do anything, but Christ, and I would say the same thing regarding holiness or allegiance; whatever it may be, it is All of Grace! "I will put my Spirit within you and CAUSE/MAKE you walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." -Ezekiel 36:27

I hope this has helped you.

God help us all....

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Liao


_________________
Michael Liao

 2012/11/13 17:30Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Dear Croref,

To answer your question, yes, Christ did it all and there is nothing left for us to do for our salvation. The law of God brings the old man/sinful man to the end of himself and leads him to the Cross of Christ. That's why we emphasize the fact that we rest in Christ. In and of our own ability and willingness, we cannot obey God's commands. We deserve wrath for that, but God's salvation is All of Grace, meaning He does it all. He sent His Son to live out the commands perfectly on our behalf and Christ dies under the wrath of God for our sin against Him. Therefore, Christ's perfect righteousness is given to us freely as a gift, while all our sins went onto Christ. The more we recognize what Christ has done for us and that there is nothing left for us to do, we are in gratitude and we will live a life that is pleasing (have allegiance) to God because of what He has done.

Secondly, to answer your question on allegiance, God is the One who makes sure that His children will be faithful to Him:
_____________________________

Thank you Michael. However, how do you handle all of the "if's", Jesus places upon the new born of Him that speak of their responsibility in the matter?

 2012/11/13 19:25Profile
MichaelLiao
Member



Joined: 2011/4/24
Posts: 185
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Dear Croref,

I agree, we do have a responsibility as Christians to follow God. But, we cannot be responsible apart from Christ, His work on the Cross, and His current work of grace in us. We have no strength of our own, but to rest in Him. As I stated, God is the One who is faithful in keeping us faithful to Him. Jesus did say that His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:28-30). In order to have allegiance to Christ, we do not try to work up something of our own flesh to try and please Him. We go to Him and behold His glory. We rest in the Promises of the New Covenant whereby God does promise to work in and through a person to fulfill the commands of God. If we focus so much on how much allegiance we have, or how passionate we are, or how good are we performing, then our eyes will be on ourselves. We will become self-centred and therefore lose sight of the Gospel. We will lose sight of what Christ has done for us. It's a weird paradox, but the more we focus on Christ, the more obedient we become. The more we focus on ourselves, we will become spiritually dry and can fall into all sorts of sin. The real reason why men and women fall into sin is because of self-righteousness. They depend on themselves. They depend on the arm of their own flesh, instead of depending on God and His New Covenant Promises in Christ to fulfill the His will in and through us. We are responsible! However, if we depend on ourselves, most assuredly we will fall and we become less and less responsible. As stated above, God not only keeps His end of the covenant, He also keeps our end, because He knows we cannot keep it on our own, no matter how much willpower or responsibility we try to exert from ourselves. It is All of Grace. To fear God comes from God Himself (Jeremiah 32:40). To have repentance comes from God himself (2 Timothy 2:25). To have faith comes from God Himself (Ephesians 2:8-9). To obey God comes from God Himself (Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 36:25-27). To surrender all comes from God Himself (Luke 18:27). To be willing and able to obey comes from God Himself (Philippians 2:13). This keeps our eyes on Christ. And as we do that, we will grow in holiness. That is why Jesus said, "I am the Vine and you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, it is he who will bear much fruit. For apart from Me, you can do NOTHING!" -John 15:5.

Dear Brother, I will assure you this. In all of your Christian life, God will bring you more and more an end to your self, so that you will have nothing but Christ and His glory in front of you. As Watchman Nee once said (paraphrase), "The way to overcome sin is not to become stronger and stronger, but to become weaker and weaker." There are many times where God will have you in situations where you are hindered to obey His commands, and that is when you will realize that all you have is Him and His promises for you, and you will come to an end of yourself of trying to obey Him. That's when you will experience the Resurrected Power of Christ in you to carry you through. It's not about you, it's about Him and Him alone. I pray what I have written has been an encouragement to you. May God grow you more and more into the image of Christ!

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Liao


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Michael Liao

 2012/11/13 19:59Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re: If we say Jesus did it all for our salvation and there is nothing for us to do .

Quote:

with regards to it then I would have to conclude our new birth is but to reveal our allegiance to Him. Does that sound right? __but then how do we do that?



Croref, based on my observation the questions that you post in this forum either directly or indirectly touch subjects that many here are deceived in. No one is here in SI forum to accept an answer from another that is against their theology and to change their mind. Each and everyone holds some theology and run away from scripture that is against their theology.
For example most of those who post that Salvation is absolutely finished work of Jesus will tell you that the teachings are Jesus are old Covenant and not applicable to us. These people run away from the teachings of Jesus because it is against their doctrine. Huge deception.

Now back to your question. Salvation is a Gift from God but we need to work to maintain it. This work comes in obedience to his spirit by the power supplied by him. We need to workout what God is working inside us to Save us.

For example I might give you a car as a gift for your Birthday with best security that no one can steal from you. You did nothing to get it from me, it is an absolute gift. But you still need to maintain it. You still need to use it. You can always decide not to use the car and start going to places by walk and struggle without it. Does that mean my gift is worthless? No you did not understand the value of my gift and hence lost the purpose of it.

Everyone who says the battle is already won by Jesus and you don't need to fight are liars. How then is Paul asking Timothy to fight the good fight? Jesus defeated Satan on the Cross, but we can still go and become a slave to this defeated Satan. Satan is defeated by Jesus and not destroyed. We still need to fight the good fight to overcome him.


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Sreeram

 2012/11/13 20:00Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

Thanks Sree. I understand but that is why I challenge. ))

Now to what you posted we can discuss_____


Now back to your question. Salvation is a Gift from God but we need to work to maintain it. This work comes in obedience to his spirit by the power supplied by him. We need to workout what God is working inside us to Save us.
__________________________________

What is my reason for working it out__to save my neck?
__________________________________

For example I might give you a car as a gift for your Birthday with best security that no one can steal from you. You did nothing to get it from me, it is an absolute gift. But you still need to maintain it. You still need to use it. You can always decide not to use the car and start going to places by walk and struggle without it. Does that mean my gift is worthless? No you did not understand the value of my gift and hence lost the purpose of it.
_________________________________

What is the value of the gift?

I know that may all be provoking but I would sincerely like to read your take on what my motivation should be for working out my salvation. How should I "use" my salvation if it is as your example of the car?

 2012/11/13 20:19Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by MichaelLiao on 2012/11/13 16:59:47

Dear Croref,

I agree, we do have a responsibility as Christians to follow God. But, we cannot be responsible apart from Christ, His work on the Cross, and His current work of grace in us.
_________________________

Thank you, Michael! What if I suggested that it is not about salvation? Read John 17:3 and see what you come up with. Keep in mind, it Jesus praying for His Disciples.

 2012/11/13 20:22Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

What is my reason for working it out__to save my neck?



I understand, my previous post was more like a parable. I did not want to explain in depth so that people will start arguing with me. I do not believe in arguing with as they are mostly fruitless. In short in my previous post I wanted to convey that Salvation being a gift does not take any responsibility away from the believers. We still have responsibility to maintain the gift.

To explain further about salvation, we need to understand what Salvation is. Based on Matthew 1-20, it is to be saved from Sin. Salvation has 3 parts,
1. Save from past sins :- Justification
2. Save from the power of Sin :- Sanctification
3. Saved from the presence of Sin :- Glorification.
Justification (step 1) is a pure Gift that we get by the power in the blood of Jesus. Romans 3 talks about it.
Sanctification (step 2) is where the Spirit of God works inside us and we have the responsibility to work it out. All the warning messages in the Bible are pointing to this stage. Romans 8 talks about the spirit filled believer who lives only by Spirit. If he turns back and starts living by flesh attracted by the beauty of the world then he will die( Romans 8:13). This is where the example of using the car comes, we have the spirit we still need to walk by it and put the deeds of Flesh to death.

Sanctification can be compared to Jesus turning water to wine. The servants filled the Jars with water by obeying Jesus and Jesus did the miracle of turning it to wine. Who gets the credit here, the one who filled the jars with water or the one who did the tough task of changing water to wine. Same way we accept no credit for working out the miracle the spirit working inside us.

Glorification (Step 3), is a work that God will do completely by his power. We cannot go to step 3 without pursuing step 2 (Hebrews 12:14). This is where many will be surprised during the second coming of Jesus. Jesus will tell them I never knew you, because they did evil by ignoring the spirit and living by flesh.

Not many here will agree with me, I will not post any further unless I see someone asking a genuine question with right spirit.


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Sreeram

 2012/11/13 20:59Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by Sree on 2012/11/13 17:59:21

Quote:

What is my reason for working it out__to save my neck?



I understand, my previous post was more like a parable. I did not want to explain in depth so that people will start arguing with me. I do not believe in arguing with as they are mostly fruitless. In short in my previous post I wanted to convey that Salvation being a gift does not take any responsibility away from the believers. We still have responsibility to maintain the gift.
_________________________________________________

Again, I do understand what you are driving at however, my point is that what/how you are expressing it makes man the center of it ALL__when he isn't. God is. This understanding will be amplified in that one who loves God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. I set about purifying my soul because I love my Father. I strive, as one who sees and seeks the kingdom, to love Him with the same love with which He loved me and there is only one way to express that kind of love to Him and it is by loving others. That doesn't come easy to me. I have to "overcome" much "flesh" of my "self" in all tooo many instances. But then that is what the new birth is all about, isn't it? In this, I rest heavily upon Romans 8:1 as one who knows to wage warfare against his own flesh, the overcoming of it being a necessity in becoming a son "brought unto glory".
In this perhaps you might see that maintaining the 'car' is not the challenge. Maintaining my relationship to Him Who gave it, is. I love Him and I am learning more how to love Him__as He first LOVED me. Why??? Because I love Him. Can you see "necessary" intimacy in this perspective?

 2012/11/14 7:03Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

In this perhaps you might see that maintaining the 'car' is not the challenge. Maintaining my relationship to Him Who gave it, is. I love Him and I am learning more how to love Him__as He first LOVED me. Why??? Because I love Him. Can you see "necessary" intimacy in this perspective?



I agree with most part of your post. You post the same thing as I did with more focus on the motivational factor which is love. I did not focus on the motivation factor, for me the motivation is to please him who gave himself for my sins and is willing to pour all his powers to help me confirmed to his image. As long as you understand the responsibility to battle the flesh to love him by obeying him, I am fine with it. The car example is not the best to compare the gift of Eternal life as nothing can be compared to the knowledge of one and only True living God.

I clearly said in my previous posts that man gets no credit for anything that he did, the glory is for him alone who choose us and empowered us to do is will. Who will remember the servants who filled the jars with water? It is Jesus who gets the glory for the miracle.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/11/14 11:50Profile





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