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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Obama Admin Tells Court: Hobby Lobby Must Obey HHS Mandate

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Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re: Obama Admin Tells Court: Hobby Lobby Must Obey HHS Mandate

Thanks for posting. Never knew Hobby Lobby was Christian owned. It is clear from the article now that Obama Admin is extremely hostile towards Christians, hating them. But his ObarfaCare will destroy businesses in general now too.

 2012/11/14 6:54Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re:

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QUOTE:
"where have they run afoul of ordinances for home bible studies? I have not heard of that. In the USA?"
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Yes, Goldminer, this has happened in the USA - United States of America! Maybe somebody else can help here - I am poor with dates and names of places (sometimes), but where did this happen? It was discussed a lot here on SI...I think it happened in AZ and FL.

You see one ordinance said a house of worship cannot be in a zone for residential housing which means that if you have ten cars parked outside with people inside having a Bible Study you are having a church, therefore it is illegal. However, you can have this many vehicles and a party and be legal.

Now choke on that! Just don't do it before you cook for all your customers!


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Sandra Miller

 2012/11/14 9:48Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re:

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"This is exactly how I believe it will be for Churches soon that are non-profit 501c3. The government will ensure they control them and have them doing their bidding in many ways so they are not a threat to their agendas.

This is one reason why I have recommended ministries and churches not to have non-profit status."
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So, if a church does not have a non-profit 501c3 status, this will then put them in a class like a business, right? If this is the case, then the gov will feel like they will have the right to come in and regulate your own methods of operations. This will mean you cannot speak out against sin, nor excommunicate unrepentant sinners.

I am wondering how this would effect charity organizations like Christian Aid Ministries (Berlin, OH). If ministries who dole out humanitarian aid were forced to abandon their mission, who would feed the poor? cleanup after natural disasters? See where I am going with this? Or, am I missing it all completely?


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Sandra Miller

 2012/11/14 11:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So, if a church does not have a non-profit 501c3 status, this will then put them in a class like a business, right? If this is the case, then the gov will feel like they will have the right to come in and regulate your own methods of operations. This will mean you cannot speak out against sin, nor excommunicate unrepentant sinners. GinnyRose




Hi Sister GinnyRose. Although I have no direct knowledge of US Law it is my understanding that the principle benefit from a definition of “private house church” forming the basis for meeting together is to negate the public legal responsibilities that come with organizations with a “public interest” element such as a formal church organization which are open to the public, regardless of tax status. In short the house church would be “legal” in sentiment only. The term church would be informal and the legal basis for meeting would be Civil Law. Dropping the Tax Status benefits would remove the house church from the obvious restraints and dictates of State and Federal government but would not remove civil responsibilities at a county level. The house church would also not be seen as a business but a private initiative. This could be demonstrated by informal deed setting out the broad terms of meeting together without specifying a formal church title; in essence a private agreement. We are going to have to be smart in the future. It would be good to start thinking about it now.

 2012/11/14 12:06
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
The house church would also not be seen as a business but a private initiative. This could be demonstrated by informal deed setting out the broad terms of meeting together without specifying a formal church title; in essence a private agreement. We are going to have to be smart in the future. It would be good to start thinking about it now.



Yes brother, exactly. And the giving to the pastor would be literally cash in hand, giving from friends. To not have a set salary and health benefits would scare many pastors but to be a shepherd of the flock you will need to make steps to suffer to still feed the flock during times of great persecution.

I agree fully we need to start thinking of these things. The book we are writing on this www.sermonindex.net/fellowships/ "Principles for the Gathering of Believers" is to help saints consider how to meet during times of persecution and to learn from underground churches in china, north korea and iran.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/11/14 12:18Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1989
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I think we are going to have to change our thinking about the church and churches. We tend toward a church paradigm that looks a lot like a business. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "church". We often think in terms of a building, programs, clergy, and congregations that "pay for" the benefit of the programs through tithe and offering. All too often, I am afraid, this even leads to a sense of consumerism among the clergy and the congregants in the sense that the first sees the second as their target market, and the second sees the first as the provider of the service that they enjoy. I think this paradigm will shift as persecution increases.

The church is the worldwide body of believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again by the Spirit of God. The local church is the local body of believers. All of the other things, buildings, programs, budgets, paid pastors/leaders/elders/teachers/etc., are simply ways of accomplishing goals that are convenient in our current society and social structure. However, if we are persecuted to the point of being driven underground, the church will still exist and will still thrive. We will still meet. We will still hold all things in common and give liberally to one anothers' needs and to generously honor those who labor among us in the word and act as servant leaders to the body.

House churches are good. Brick churches on the corner of 2nd and main are good. But both are just ways in which the church assembles. We are the church.


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Travis

 2012/11/14 15:55Profile
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Posts: 37044
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
I think we are going to have to change our thinking about the church and churches. We tend toward a church paradigm that looks a lot like a business. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "church". We often think in terms of a building, programs, clergy, and congregations that "pay for" the benefit of the programs through tithe and offering. All too often, I am afraid, this even leads to a sense of consumerism among the clergy and the congregants in the sense that the first sees the second as their target market, and the second sees the first as the provider of the service that they enjoy. I think this paradigm will shift as persecution increases.

The church is the worldwide body of believers in Jesus Christ who have been born again by the Spirit of God. The local church is the local body of believers. All of the other things, buildings, programs, budgets, paid pastors/leaders/elders/teachers/etc., are simply ways of accomplishing goals that are convenient in our current society and social structure. However, if we are persecuted to the point of being driven underground, the church will still exist and will still thrive. We will still meet. We will still hold all things in common and give liberally to one anothers' needs and to generously honor those who labor among us in the word and act as servant leaders to the body.

House churches are good. Brick churches on the corner of 2nd and main are good. But both are just ways in which the church assembles. We are the church.



Very well said brother!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/11/14 16:34Profile









 Re: Obama Admin Tells Court: Hobby Lobby Must Obey HHS Mandate

Maybe Hobby Lobby could hire all men to work in their stores.

I would like to know if the Obama Administration is forcing companies that are owned by Muslims to do the same thing. I never hear anything from the Muslim community being up in arms over any of these issues, it's seems to be all Christian related.

 2012/11/14 16:53
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re:

Ok, I get it as far as a body of Believers owning and operating at certain property, like a church house, etc.

So then, how about charitable organizations? Some pay their employees, other operate mostly with donated labor...


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Sandra Miller

 2012/11/14 20:54Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37044
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
So then, how about charitable organizations? Some pay their employees, other operate mostly with donated labor...



Sister, agree with you exactly that small churches can go underground but larger churches or large non-profit organizations cannot they will have to dissolve at some point if persecution gets that serious. Or they can do things uncover ie have a secular outward look but in the end be sharing the Gospel.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/11/14 21:24Profile





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