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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : My spirit shall not always strive with man

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brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

ahhhhh im seeing double tripple ,,,man i must be geting tired

 2012/11/9 7:46Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by brothagary on 2012/11/9 4:28:47

well i dont see in scripture any evedence that jesus made it possable through his death to cause regeneration ,,,,,making that statment brother would also require you to show evedence ,accoring to your own demands on me

i would agree maby with a baptism of his spirit was relient on his death and resarection


but as i said even if they were not born again accoring to the new covernt econemey

but no i dont believe gods spirit moveed upon the righeous

i think first he moved upon the sinner ,and made him righeoues through faith as paul said about abrhams imputation of righeouusness ,,and then moved upon and in ,due to the fact that old testament says the words filled with the spirit

Quote:
the bible doesnt say that david was unregenerent nor abraham ,,,that would be your interprtation sir



The Bible doesn't say a lot of things but sufficient is given for our understanding.

Quote:
but it doesnt realy bother me weather a person believes this or that

but i think it can led to thinking to highly of our selfs ,and boasting against the branches so to speak



Since you can't provide scripture to support your opinion and deny/dismiss out of hand scriptural understanding with evidence that counters it, what's left to discuss?

I will say this: Regeneration was not for salvation. Faith in God and righteousness alone was all that was necessary to keep man from hell's fire. Regeneration can take man beyond that and directly into the presence of God either for the living or dead. Paul spoke of it.. All the OT saints, Elijah and Enoch notwithstanding, died with but the promise of that and, upon death had to wait for it in the grave.

 2012/11/9 7:55Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
Dear Robert, You are wording me to death without addressing the issue of God NOT giving "unregenerate" Cain something he could not perform. This, in the OT, is not about salvation but finding favor with God. If it was not within man's power to perform righteously then God would not have required it. He was a respecter of persons in that regard. He simply exhorted Cain to do good with a caution. We can extend this instruction right up to Duet.6:4__and beyond, if you like.



I have never said that man could not obey God. I don't think I have ever said that once in my life. When God speaks to man His Word carries within itself the grace to accomplish what He is saying. No Word from God is void of Power.

Satan obeys God every time he is told to do something. Even the demons believe and tremble. But they do not desire to obey God. Man, in a fallen state, typically does not desire to obey God. There are some 'exceptions' to this. Some have tasted and seen that the Lord is good and have sought to obey God- all the while another law was working in their members bringing them into captivity to the law of Sin. They were in Adam striving against sin. This was Paul's experience, I believe, before he was born again. (Romans 7)


A person does not have to subscribe to total depravity to believe in original sin. When God speaks we can and we must. What regeneration brings is a whole new nature that loves righteousness and hates iniquity. It loves our neighbor as God works within both to will and do his good pleasure. Even Paul placed himself in Ephesians 2 when he said, "We all walking in times past..." So even while he desired to please God, he still was living in the lusts of the flesh, etc. Hope that helps. Blessings.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/9 8:00Profile









 Re: My spirit shall not always strive with man

Quote:
Dear Robert, You are wording me to death without addressing the issue of God NOT giving "unregenerate" Cain something he could not perform. This, in the OT, is not about salvation but finding favor with God. If it was not within man's power to perform righteously then God would not have required it. He was a respecter of persons in that regard. He simply exhorted Cain to do good with a caution. We can extend this instruction right up to Duet.6:4__and beyond, if you like.

Lets make no mistake that when we stand before the Lord in that day, He will look at our righteousness or lack of it__not that of Jesus who "gifted" His Life that we might be rectified by the purposed relationship in Him by which we would attain unto perfection in Father. [no sinless perfection here] croref




I’m not sure that God did actually require Cain to act righteously in the sense of true righteousness. Could it not be as simple as God telling Cain the truth, that sin was crouching at the door and he [Cain himself] would have to master it? There was no remedy for Cain’s problem if Cain himself could not control himself. This is not a mockery or a test on God’s part but a way of showing Cain his true condition. The Law of Moses was subsequently given to make this same lesson. Today we have the same understanding if we reckon with sin, but our power to resists primarily comes from a new life. I expect that Cain needed a conviction of sin, but what use would a conviction be to a man who had no choice but to live independently of God as far as his natural condition is concerned. For this reason when I read “sin crouches at the door etc.” I understand that to mean the body of sin and death (physical body) which without the Law of Moses was not yet a law of sin and death, but a power of sin and death and therefore could be restrained by the man (Cain) if he had a heart to restrain himself. Didn't God "wink" at sin before the Law and by the Law reckon all men incapable of obedience? All things pointing to Christ Jesus crucified before the foundation of the world. When God spoke to Cain was He unaware of that which in His sight was true before the earth itself was even formed? Praise God for His foreknowledge of all things.

 2012/11/9 8:09
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

well im sure i can say the same back to you that you are making staments and not using scripture to back it up

please let me glean from what you just said and repeat your quote that you used to justafie your self not using scripture

The Bible doesn't say a lot of things but sufficient is given for our understanding


now i agree with that statment

marks of regenerations are faith and righeousness and that alone will save from hell

old testaments saints lived in the presesnc of god as we do some more then others ,,

sure the newcovernt the blood of that ,,opend up the door of heaven for us all ,,defenitly

faith is a gift from god ,righeousness accounted to or imputed to man is a gift,, and good deeds perform by faith for gods glory ,is a gift,,for god works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure ,,paul said that

i dont like to take credit for what gods does ,,it smels of pride ,and can produce self praising and boasting in my opinion ,,

 2012/11/9 8:18Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by brothagary on 2012/11/9 5:18:52

well im sure i can say the same back to you that you are making staments and not using scripture to back it up




Why don't you ask__as I did only to be dismissed.

__And I will tell you there is nowhere in scripture, before John 20:22, that speaks of or even hints at anyone who could have been even remotely born again. One who is, functions upon a totally new foundation for living life and living it more abundantly is the basis of it. Ergo, the chief purpose for the Word incarnated in Jesus__ He is a new creation living out his life on a totally new basis of life ___Redemption. Know of anyone redeemed in the OT, bro?

 2012/11/9 9:26Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re:

Quote:

RE: Sree wrote ///Bible also says that Jesus came in the LIKENESS of Human flesh. It does not say that he came in Human flesh.///

The Bible does not say any where that Jesus came in the LIKENESS of Human flesh. But it does say "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"



Philippians 2-6:- although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the LIKENESS of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

This is the word I quoted. I agree with Brother Robert that there is a difference in the Flesh of Jesus and ours. But my point is we cannot speculate on what the difference is because Bible does not put light on it. I believe everything that the Bible says is true, I do not support any theology to be blinded by it in seeing God's truth.

Jesus was 100% God and at the same time 100% man when he was on this earth. He was tempted in all things both inside and outside like his fellow brothers (bornagain believers) and this where I disagree with Brother RobertW.

By seed, I meant the virgin birth of Jesus and not his Genealogy. By Genealogy he was the son of David and by his heart he was a humble 'Son of Man'. Also my post was for Brother RobertW who understood what I said and gave me an explanation personally. I am sorry if it was not elaborate enough for others to understand.


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Sreeram

 2012/11/9 12:14Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Sree

after reading your other post and this post, I want to apologize for jumping in the middle of your conversation without researching your entire conversation first. I was mistaken on what you where implying and I thank you for the correction.

RE: Sree wrote///Jesus was 100% God and at the same time 100% man when he was on this earth. He was tempted in all things both inside and outside like his fellow brothers (bornagain believers) and this where I disagree with Brother RobertW.///

I agree, and actually misunderstood your position, when I posted what I did.




 2012/11/9 20:42Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I agree with Brother Robert that there is a difference in the Flesh of Jesus and ours. But my point is we cannot speculate on what the difference is because Bible does not put light on it.



Just as a point of clarification I want to say that I view our Lord's experience on the Earth, in the body of His flesh, as the same as Adam's human experience prior to the fall. He was fully human, but did not have a sin nature. Whereas people that are born in Adam have both their human nature with the additional corruption of Sin.

* Some in these threads seem to be saying that man does not have a sin nature.
* Some seem to be saying that Jesus had a sin nature.
* I am saying that man is born with a sin nature, but Jesus was not.

One of the problems I see when the subject of original sin or sin nature is brought up is that the issues get straw-manned until the conversation becomes unfruitful. When i say that man has a sin nature I am not saying that he is not accountable for his actions. I am not saying that he could not have chosen NOT to sin when he did sin. I am not saying that the sin nature forces him to sin and thet he cannot help himself. I am saying that man has an inward bent towards sin that is spiritual in nature. Jesus did not have this bent, so Satan himself came to do the tempting. It was an external agency. Fallen man does not need Satan to come and tempt him, he is already walking in the spirit of disobedience as a child of wrath. (Ephesians 2) Blessings.





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/9 21:26Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: brothagary

hi brothagary,

RE: brothagary wrote ///hi proud pappa ,that wasnt a literal account of anything that happened ,,it was a parable ,to explain a deeper truth///

well it for sure may have been a literal account.

But what was this deeper truth ?? ( I pose this question to everyone involved in this discussion ? (we are speaking of the good Samaritan)

 2012/11/9 21:38Profile





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