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Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/6 14:24:32

Hi murrcolr,


The greater the lust the more vulnerable the person. Since the body is neutral it cannot discriminate between what is good and evil when it comes to fulfilling desires. What sets the one apart from the other is our knowledge of God's will.




God's will?__or the test of allegiance and love TO Him? __Intimacy here that mere knowledge of God's will now takes on a deeper dimension.

 2012/11/7 3:14Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
Why did one fail the test while the other passed it?



I think this answer is found in Hebrews 1:9; Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

There is an important component that we have to examine in answer to this question. Adam and the last Adam (Jesus) had a relationship with God the Father that had to be protected. Adam lived in a sanctuary where God walked with him in the cool of the day. Jesus WAS the Sanctuary as God was in Christ continually. This is two sanctuaries. Isaiah 66 tells us that one of the qualifications for being a place of God's rest is that one must TREMBLE at His word. How did Adam do?

Before God created man He had already determined to prepare a place where He and man could fellowship together face to face and eye to eye. God placed Adam in the prepared place and charged him to tend it and keep it. Our words here mean literally to work it and to guard it. Adam was to 'hedge in' this sanctuary to protect it from forces that would seek to destroy the sanctity of such a place that it might be a place of God's rest. God could be at home in fellowship with Adam so long as he protected this sanctuary. Adam failed, sin entered and defiled, God left and Satan reigned. This is the story of Adam and later Israel would repeat it. God made a sanctuary in the wilderness as a place of rest where He could dwell among His people as King. Israel was to hedge this place in from forces that would threaten the sanctity of it. Israel failed, sin defiled, God left and Satan reigned. Jesus Christ the Last Adam came as the embodiment of sanctuary. He hedged Himself in from forces that would defile, entertained the presence of God, lived holy and seperate from Sin, and conquered death, hell and the grave. He loved the Father and protected the relationship from forces that would defile. He trembled at God's word. he lived by every word that proceeded from the Father's mouth.

A lot of people claim to 'love' God, but when it comes to loving His precepts they fall short. People make decisions about things and don't even bother to inquire of the LORD. Jesus would not as much as turn a stone into bread for His own benefit without inquiring of the Father. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)

Jesus loved to do the Father's will. It was His necessary food. This is how His love was expressed. There was no shallowness or pretense in His love. On the contrary, I think shallowness and pretense of love is a tremendous problem in our times. Peoples words and actions do not match. Hebrews 1:9 could have easily said, "Thou hast loved God and hated Satan", but that is not what it said. Jesus walked in agreement with His Father's righteous and holy attributes. They saw all things eye to eye. He loved His Father, not in spite of the fact that He is righteous and holy, but He Himself loved and hated the very same things as His Father. Adam could never say that. Just some thoughts. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/7 7:19Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:


Bac'atcha Robert!!

by RobertW on 2012/11/7 4:19:44

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
Why did one fail the test while the other passed it?



Quote:
I think this answer is found in Hebrews 1:9; Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



If we say innocence is without knowledge as we speak of Adam being, where is the accountability on that level of understanding? Perhaps a better understanding for us is to view it as a violation we see God dealing with in Uzzah who attempted to steady the ark where neither ignorance nor innocence can be the excuse. Note: Think what we are dealing with here and the absoluteness of it all.

Quote:
There is an important component that we have to examine in answer to this question. Adam and the last Adam (Jesus) had a relationship with God the Father that had to be protected. Adam lived in a sanctuary where God walked with him in the cool of the day. Jesus WAS the Sanctuary as God was in Christ continually.



But only by the “freewill” of Jesus was He.

Quote:
This is two sanctuaries. Isaiah 66 tells us that one of the qualifications for being a place of God's rest is that one must TREMBLE at His word. How did Adam do?



I can well understand that being for me and you that Isaiah would say such but, Jesus trembled? And Adam? What reason would they have had to in their innocence?

Quote:
Before God created man He had already determined to prepare a place where He and man could fellowship together face to face and eye to eye. God placed Adam in the prepared place and charged him to tend it and keep it. Our words here mean literally to work it and to guard it. Adam was to 'hedge in' this sanctuary to protect it from forces that would seek to destroy the sanctity of such a place that it might be a place of God's rest. God could be at home in fellowship with Adam so long as he protected this sanctuary. Adam failed, sin entered and defiled, God left and Satan reigned.



Because Jesus literally “clothed” Deity of the Godhead, I can understand that what He clothed was a Sanctuary to and for Him however, in the case of Adam, where was this sanctuary he was given to protect but, outside himself? __the “Tree of Life”, that would have become so by obedience and revealed allegiance.

Quote:
This is the story of Adam and later Israel would repeat it. God made a sanctuary in the wilderness as a place of rest where He could dwell among His people as King. Israel was to hedge this place in from forces that would threaten the sanctity of it. Israel failed, sin defiled, God left and Satan reigned. Jesus Christ the Last Adam came as the embodiment of sanctuary. He hedged Himself in from forces that would defile, entertained the presence of God, lived holy and separate from Sin, and conquered death, hell and the grave. He loved the Father and protected the relationship from forces that would defile. He trembled at God's word. he lived by every word that proceeded from the Father's mouth.



By what process did He did do this and was it not from innocence He did so? Jesus feared not the Father but loved Him__”There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” 1 John 4:18 (KJV) 

Quote:
A lot of people claim to 'love' God, but when it comes to loving His precepts they fall short. People make decisions about things and don't even bother to inquire of the LORD. Jesus would not as much as turn a stone into bread for His own benefit without inquiring of the Father. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)



That is innocence manifested to be made holy, is it not? __”full of Grace and Truth”.

Quote:
Jesus loved to do the Father's will. It was His necessary food. This is how His love was expressed. There was no shallowness or pretense in His love. On the contrary, I think shallowness and pretense of love is a tremendous problem in our times. Peoples words and actions do not match. Hebrews 1:9 could have easily said, "Thou hast loved God and hated Satan", but that is not what it said. Jesus walked in agreement with His Father's righteous and holy attributes. They saw all things eye to eye. He loved His Father, not in spite of the fact that He is righteous and holy, but He Himself loved and hated the very same things as His Father. Adam could never say that. Just some thoughts. Blessings.



Beautifully expressed! __but why could not have Adam done it, if I understand you correctly, he was given a sanctuary to protect? Was there no vision to relate him to it?

I guess what I am getting at here is while, with Jesus, everything that related to God as Father was within Him whereas, with Adam it was all on the outside of him__purposed to be in him had he obeyed and then, with the eating of the tree of life, become incarnated.

 2012/11/7 12:28Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5381
NC, USA

 Re:

It is my belief that Jesus had no "special advantage" over us that assisted him in his sinlessness, other than he was able to control his temptations through willpower and obedience to conscience. And while I do believe this to be true, nobody has provided me with an answer as to HOW he was able to do it. we know He did it, but how?

I believe it would be unacceptable to answer this question by bringing up that he was the Son of God, the lack of a sin nature, etc because these would all give him a special advantage. So, if one argues that Jesus was just like us, i.e. subject to the exact temptations and equally susceptible to sin, etc, the question on the table is how in the world could he keep from sinning? Everyone else who is "just like me", meaning every other person on the planet now and in the past has sinned. So why didn't Jesus? And, if it was due to his divinity, then He DID have a special advantage.


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Todd

 2012/11/7 13:51Profile
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by TMK on 2012/11/7 10:51:18

It is my belief that Jesus had no "special advantage" over us that assisted him in his sinlessness, other than he was able to control his temptations through willpower and obedience to conscience. And while I do believe this to be true, nobody has provided me with an answer as to HOW he was able to do it. we know He did it, but how?




He didn't obey His conscience, as you would have it. He loved His Father as a son and only functioned according to His will. Jesus lived with a vision of joy set before Him that was His strength given Him by Father because of His love shown Him. Why do you purposely overlook that "little" thing???

 2012/11/7 14:08Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi CroRef,

Quote:
I can well understand that being for me and you that Isaiah would say such but, Jesus trembled? And Adam? What reason would they have had to in their innocence?



I should have identified the Hebrew word here for 'tremble', but sometimes these posts are so long as it is. The word for 'tremble' in Hebrew is chared and in this context means 'to reverence'. I typically draw an illustration by citing the reason why Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land:

And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also]. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. (Numbers 20:11-12)

Notice the statement, "Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel." That is to say, he gave the impression to the people that God could be disobeyed. Had he done as did Jesus, he would have lived by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (an obvious anthropomorphism). It was an act of irreverence to disobey God before the people. Adam did not reverence God's word either or he would not have sinned and been cast out. The parallel to Adam and Moses is that one single sin cost each of them dearly. Jesus was 100% percent obedient 100% of the time. Why? Because He is our example and as our example He reverenced (feared) the Lord and trembled at (chared/reverenced) His Word.

Quote:
I guess what I am getting at here is while, with Jesus, everything that related to God as Father was within Him whereas, with Adam it was all on the outside of him__purposed to be in him had he obeyed and then, with the eating of the tree of life, become incarnated.



I don't think we should lose sight of our Lord's humanity while on the earth. (Phil. 2:6-7) I also think we need to make the case that if Jesus had an inward reality working, Adam lived in a world devoid of sin. In other words, Sin had not yet entered the world so the creation was much more conducive to righteousness. The common denominator was Satan as the tempter. So I don't see one or the other necessarily having an advantage. Just some more thoughts. Blessings.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/7 14:55Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5381
NC, USA

 Re:

Croref: wrote:
"He didn't obey His conscience, as you would have it. He loved His Father as a son and only functioned according to His will. Jesus lived with a vision of joy set before Him that was His strength given Him by Father because of His love shown Him. Why do you purposely overlook that "little" thing???"

I am not overlooking it- that is just the point. If Jesus had no "special advantage" when it came to obedience/not giving into temptation, why has no other person been able to do so, if it is such a "little thing?"

If we say it is because Jesus is God (which of course he is- but scripture said he emptied himself of divine attributes when incarnated), then He obviously had a special advantage. If that is the answer, that is fine-- but then he wasn't really tempted as we are- and the scripture says that he WAS tempted as we are.

So there must be some reason that He was able to go w/o sinning. Did he have a larger portion of the Holy Spirit than we do today?

I don't really expect answers, as I am not sure there are any, but these are points to ponder.


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Todd

 2012/11/7 15:30Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/7 11:55:25

I don't think we should lose sight of our Lord's humanity while on the earth. (Phil. 2:6-7) I also think we need to make the case that if Jesus had an inward reality working, Adam lived in a world devoid of sin. In other words, Sin had not yet entered the world so the creation was much more conducive to righteousness. The common denominator was Satan as the tempter. So I don't see one or the other necessarily having an advantage. Just some more thoughts. Blessings.





Hi Robert!

The un-common denominator was the issue of "intimacy". Adam had none with God and Jesus, because of His birth, indwelling and "unction to function" had much more to protect but also without an advocate. I would say Jesus had an advantage insofar as by virtue of His birth He possessed what Adam had to learn before he could possess it__Love.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 2012/11/7 15:37Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by TMK on 2012/11/7 12:30:49

Croref: wrote:
"He didn't obey His conscience, as you would have it. He loved His Father as a son and only functioned according to His will. Jesus lived with a vision of joy set before Him that was His strength given Him by Father because of His love shown Him. Why do you purposely overlook that "little" thing???"

I am not overlooking it- that is just the point. If Jesus had no "special advantage" when it came to obedience/not giving into temptation, why has no other person been able to do so, if it is such a "little thing?"

If we say it is because Jesus is God (which of course he is- but scripture said he emptied himself of divine attributes when incarnated), then He obviously had a special advantage. If that is the answer, that is fine-- but then he wasn't really tempted as we are- and the scripture says that he WAS tempted as we are.

So there must be some reason that He was able to go w/o sinning. Did he have a larger portion of the Holy Spirit than we do today?

I don't really expect answers, as I am not sure there are any, but these are points to ponder.




Well if that is the case I'll leave you with the fact that Jesus, as no other, was full of Grace and Truth. That position in the Father, I feel quite sure, carries with it something special insofar as God withheld nothing from Him, according to His will.

 2012/11/7 15:43Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5381
NC, USA

 Re:

Croref wrote:

"Jesus, as no other, was full of Grace and Truth. That position in the Father, I feel quite sure, carries with it something special insofar as God withheld nothing from Him, according to His will."

So in other words, he DID have a special advantage ;)


_________________
Todd

 2012/11/7 15:58Profile





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