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jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, could it be so simple as adam did not see any change in eve after she ate of the tree and thought it must be safe to eat of?

 2012/11/7 6:08Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
hi, could it be so simple as adam did not see any change in eve after she ate of the tree and thought it must be safe to eat of? Jimp



On the face of it Jim (Genesis 3:7) Adam and Eve became aware of a change in their minds only after Adam himself ate. This change is expressed as “their eyes were opened” and “knowing they were naked”. This type of “seeing” is of the mind. The eyes are simply the vehicles of sight. There is nothing said about what Eve may have thought before Adam ate. So to accept the record as it is written would almost certainly mean that Adam didn’t comprehend a change in Eve because it didn’t occur until they were both fallen. When I was thinking bout this during the post it occurred to me that whatever Eve understood after becoming deceived it was of no account. Deceived is deceived. When a person is deceived the details seem far less important than the fact of it. It is pure speculation on my part but I have also wondered if Adam’s position as head did not actually keep Eve in some way from the immediate effect of disobedience, so that Adam’s decision to eat is what really carried the authoritative weight, consequence and responsibility. As it is written sin is reckoned through Adam.

Adam was innocent so safe seems like a nice word, but he was also the one to whom the command was given directly. If Eve knew before she was deceived, (and she did because she said so) then Adam could not have known any less than his wife. I find it difficult to attribute to Adam anything less than his responsibility so "safe" seems to ill fit the circumstance. Who knows what he might have thought though!

 2012/11/7 7:31
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

I repeat__Adam was unwillingly subjected to vanity__with the hope he would not succumb.

 2012/11/7 10:49Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
I repeat__Adam was unwillingly subjected to vanity__with the hope he would not succumb. Croref




Is the unwillingness on Adams part? And is the hope on God’ part? Given that you are insistent I thought it would be worth asking!

 2012/11/7 14:03
Croref
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 Re:

by amrkelly on 2012/11/7 11:03:19

Quote:
I repeat__Adam was unwillingly subjected to vanity__with the hope he would not succumb. Croref




Is the unwillingness on Adams part? And is the hope on God’ part? Given that you are insistent I thought it would be worth asking!


God did the subjecting as the only means for Adam to prove himself, his allegiance to Him, by a choice given Adam. God did it with a hope that Adam would come through and if that was not the case then God gave him something he could not perform. God obviously planned for his failure.

cf Romans 8:20

 2012/11/7 14:53Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
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 Re:

hi, one of my favorite books i have read ispart of a trilogy by c.s. lewis.the book is titled perelandra and it is about men flying to a planet where the the two humans have not disobeyed God. it brings out the sinful nature of men from earth except for the Jesus type character(ransom).great alagory.jimp

 2012/11/7 15:16Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but wanted to touch on Romans 8:20 a bit contextually.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:19-22)

Verse 19 points to a future time when the sons of God will be manifest to the creation (creature). After the fall God had placed the earth in a state of inutility. Our word here for vanity is ματαιότης mataiotes. It comes from a word meaning devoid of force or vain; that is to say, fruitless and without results.

If we interpret V.20 as the Creation being in a state of 'inutility' and couple that with the 'curse' that caused the earth not to produce as it did prior to the fall then I am left to think that the whole creation is sort of limping along. I think this was done as a preventative measure to insure that Adam would have to work by the sweat of his face instead of walking around picking fruit. In short, God put the earth in a state in which man had a lot less time for leisure because the earth did not work as well as it did at first.

Some creation scientists tell of a time when the whole earth was in a state of symphonic equilibrium. Everything was working like a perfectly tuned machine or a well oiled watch. The is the earth in a state of complete utility (if you will). Everything functioned exactly as designed. Everything worked together in perfect harmony with just the right balances and processes. But today, we are in a state of 'inutility'. We have seasons of summer and winter and have to work hard to get our necessary food.

In the auto industry cars have computers that monitor and adjust the functions of the engines to insure that everything is perfectly tuned at all times. I'm not 100% sure if it's true today, but back in the 80's and 90's when something went catastrophically wrong with an engine feedback system the computer went into what we called 'limp in mode'. This was a default setting that goes into play when certain sensors cannot be trusted and the vehicle needs to be able to merely make it into the shop. The car is drivable, but the performance is far less than if things were in a 'closed loop operation.' A closed loop system takes into account sensor readings (especially oxygen content in the exaust) to keep the air-ful mixture, ignition timing, etc. all in perfect balance. This is happening many hundreds of times per second almost like a 'refresh rate'. You don't even notice its happening when all is well; but in 'limp in' mode things don't run right.

This is how I see the issue of 'inutility' or 'vanity'. We are subject to the bondage (slavery) of corruption. This is a word that is similar to death or dying. There is a winding down that is happening in both the creation and in our mortal bodies. again, I think this was a measure employed by God to reduce the effectiveness of the earth so as to make life more difficult. An idle mind is the devils workshop. God got man busy by placing the earth in inutility. Just my view of it. Blessings.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/11/7 16:24Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
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 Re:

hi, wonderful post,robert.jimp

 2012/11/7 16:39Profile
Croref
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Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by RobertW on 2012/11/7 13:24:50

This is how I see the issue of 'inutility' or 'vanity'. We are subject to the bondage (slavery) of corruption. This is a word that is similar to death or dying. There is a winding down that is happening in both the creation and in our mortal bodies. again, I think this was a measure employed by God to reduce the effectiveness of the earth so as to make life more difficult. An idle mind is the devils workshop. God got man busy by placing the earth in inutility. Just my view of it. Blessings.




For sure, that is the traditional thinking of it all __that doesn't fit the situation. I'll stick with my understanding because it does fit that the rest of the 'dots' can be connected.

 2012/11/7 17:12Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i watched roberts viedo of the beating of the drums was a well presented gosple message and it was good to put a face to the name thanks for posting the link


i think creation was subject to courption for one ,,it was an inhertence for the sons of men,,so it needed to be either taken away from man ,or changed to suit the circumstances


blessings

 2012/11/8 3:27Profile





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