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jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, i picture the tree of life as a somewhat ugly tree with somewhat non descript lookin fruit so it was not something that sparked desire to try .somewhat like the bible prophecies about what Jesus would look like when He would come.jimp where the tree of the knowlege if good and evil was very desirous.

 2012/11/6 8:53Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
Why take it that far?? How 'bout it was just simple 'neglect'?? Did Adam have a "pressing need" that he should be drawn to it??

Question: Why does one come to Christ?? croref




The Father draws one to Christ. As Jesus said no one could believe in Him unless The Father draws him. The Father also drew Adam’ attention to the tree of life both indirectly by providing or else creating “all” the trees physically in one garden as well as by placing the two trees at the heart of the garden together. Not only this but the Scriptures have many examples of God’ expectation that His invisible attributes make for a possibility in understanding His will with regards to those physical things. Marriage for example of a man to one woman is a physical restraint and meaning which is said to be a “natural” affection. Therefore, to do the opposite amounts to exchanging a natural affection for an unnatural one in contradiction of ones own understanding as well as God' intention. The Tree of Life may well as Jim says have been the less attractive of the two trees we know the names of. Yet even if this were true it would in that not amount to ignorance, but would simply be a thing to seek out, even as Christ is one to seek out.


Quote:
…was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."?? proudpapa




When I first read this brother in the first posting of it, a vague thought crossed my mind. Now that this thread has moved on a little in seeking to answer the OP question I believe that you have said this very well. When Paul said “he who loves his wife loves himself” I believe he wasn’t making a negative statement which by inference would mean, don’t love your wife too much etc. I think he was making a statement based in reality. When Adam first laid eyes on his wife to be, his immediate understanding was real, this is “woman” “flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone”. Clearly his mental powers were acute and functioning very well indeed. He wasn’t informed of this fact; he was simply equipped to know it. This tells me two things. That when Paul said “know you not that when a man loves his wife he loves himself” he was saying nothing more than Adam himself understood the first time he set eyes on his wife. It also tells me that not only was he not capable of being deceived by the serpent but he had all the abilities to know realities. He named all the animals; that is quiet a feat of intellect because this too denotes an ability to understand the nature of every animal. This is the meaning of having authority to name something. Parents name their own children having an understanding of something that took place in their privacy; namely “this is our child” Parents don’t name other peoples children.

In short brother when Adam saw Eve stretch out her hand he was quiet capable of doing something about it. Whatever thoughts crossed his mind, in the end he proffered to go with the emotional and intellectual comfort of agreeing with his wife. This is self before God and this is the first sin of man and this is the basis of the fall. It is a form of Idolatry, putting self before God. It is called disobedience but it is obedience to self interest before obedience to God’ will; in this case experienced internally by a compulsion of that which he could see and hear outwardly, namely that he loved and adored his wife who was of himself.

The words of God to Adam in dealing with the problem of this sin were "because you have listened to the voice of your wife" Genesis 3:17. The action of eating a piece of fruit is no great thing. But for Adam listening to the voice of Eve his wife whom he loved as himself, in the end becomes rebellion in his progeny.

 2012/11/6 12:22
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by amrkelly on 2012/11/6 9:22:00

Quote:
Why take it that far?? How 'bout it was just simple 'neglect'?? Did Adam have a "pressing need" that he should be drawn to it??

Question: Why does one come to Christ?? croref




The Father draws one to Christ. As Jesus said no one could believe in Him unless The Father draws him. The Father also drew Adam’ attention to the tree of life both indirectly by providing or else creating “all” the trees physically in one garden as well as by placing the two trees at the heart of the garden together. Not only this but the Scriptures have many examples of God’ expectation that His invisible attributes make for a possibility in understanding His will with regards to those physical things. Marriage for example of a man to one woman is a physical restraint and meaning which is said to be a “natural” affection. Therefore, to do the opposite amounts to exchanging a natural affection for an unnatural one in contradiction of ones own understanding as well as God' intention. The Tree of Life may well as Jim says have been the less attractive of the two trees we know the names of. Yet even if this were true it would in that not amount to ignorance, but would simply be a thing to seek out, even as Christ is one to seek out.


Adam was innocent. No drawing by God would ever have been an issue; never a necessity to be drawn to the Tree of Life anymore so then any other tree.

 2012/11/6 13:39Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
Adam was innocent. No drawing by God would ever have been an issue; never a necessity to be drawn to the Tree of Life anymore so then any other tree. croref



The very fact that God tells Adam that he could eat of any tree in the garden was an act of drawing attention to something in this case a number of tree’s bearing a variety of fruits. As I said brother “God drew Adam’ ATTENTION to the Tree of Life etc.” You being a teacher formerly I thought you would have known how to pay attention. 2 out of 3 for that one! You understand brother.

Quote:
The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:8-9


The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2 16-17



Did you actually read what has been shared brother? Why not comment on something more substantive at lease that would have a purpose which is easily recognised. We don't have to agree. But if we don't use our minds at all we may never really come to an understanding mind ourselves. Of course we could all just wait for a fresh revival but if by then we have hardened our hearts even then we might not benefit. Do you know why there is so much sin in the lives of believers? Or is it just theology? Perhaps it is just mysticism if so perhaps we should all join a contemplative order of monks! On the other hand we could really desire to know what it is that ails the churches today. Beginning with our selves of course both you and me.

 2012/11/6 15:38
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by amrkelly on 2012/11/6 12:38:08

Quote:
Adam was innocent. No drawing by God would ever have been an issue; never a necessity to be drawn to the Tree of Life anymore so then any other tree. croref



The very fact that God tells Adam that he could eat of any tree in the garden was an act of drawing attention to something in this case a number of tree’s bearing a variety of fruits. As I said brother “God drew Adam’ ATTENTION to the Tree of Life etc.” You being a teacher formerly I thought you would have known how to pay attention. 2 out of 3 for that one! You understand brother.


Easy Bro. Given Adam believed he needed nothing, give a reason why Adam should be "drawn" to anything __without a need to satisfy what he might have believed he did not already possess?

 2012/11/6 15:45Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, it does not realy matter. it does paint a great picture that has been true throughout the history of mankind. but,unless you have THE SECOND ADAM it just does not matter. Jesus is the only thing that i know and Him crucified. jimp

 2012/11/6 16:44Profile









 Re: the first sin

Quote:
Easy Bro. Given Adam believed he needed nothing, give a reason why Adam should be "drawn" to anything __without a need to satisfy what he might have believed he did not already possess? Croref



Now that is a brilliant question! Also thank you for being so gracious with my last post.


Jim expressed a thought that the Tree of Life might have been less beautiful than the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact Jim used the word “non descript”. The Genesis passages however makes no precise distinction but simply says that all the trees were “pleasing to the sight and good for food”. After Eve was deceived it is written that she “looked and saw that the fruit of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was pleasing to the eye, she looked and saw that it was good for food, and she looked and saw that is was able to make one wise”. Given that Eve knew that God had forbidden the eating of this particular fruit, it seems reasonable to accept that she only “looked” with such an interest after the issue of obedience to God was “removed” by the removal or questioning of God’s integrity and authority. We do not read that Eve or Adam looked at any other fruit of the many trees that were available to them, including the Tree of Life. Yet given that they were for food as well and God Himself placed Adam initially in the midst of them it seems unlikely that they paid no attention to them whatsoever after Eve was presented to Adam. Together they lived amongst them. How could they have been unaware of their presence or the fact that they were given for food as well? “You may eat of any tree except for etc.”


As to Adam’s innocence and the possibility that he would have not been able to conceive of a need to eat of The Tree of Life I don’t have an absolute clarity to this question. It appears to be beyond a simple rational explanation. Yet I can see that Adam was an exceptional being with a huge intellect. If Einstein was smart then Adam must have been at least as smart or how else did Einstein come by such an intellect. Who begot whom? I believe that Adam would not have been drawn by a need as though he lacked anything, but I also believe that he would have been smart enough to be able to seek God out when Eve disobeyed. Had he put his trust in God at that moment and disregarded his own reasonable affection to take heed to his wife he would have been able to find an answer to her “new” condition (deceived and knowledgeable) from God.


The one thing about Adam that is wholly difficult to understand is the fact that he was innocent. We read that no man has sinned after the “similitude” of Adam’ sin. I don’t suppose this means no one is able to take from Eve’ hand a forbidden fruit and eat it. That defies rational but it does mean I believe that no one was ever innocent again as Adam was innocent. The fact is we ourselves cannot imagine what innocence is like. We can impute its meaning by an observation of a small child. But we cannot personally experience it. The best that we can do ourselves is to believe what the Scriptures tells us lies at the root of all sin and what God’ remedy for sin is, beginning with the promise to Adam’s wife that she will become the mother of the living (lit: Eve). It is the promise of her seed, even Immanuel that becomes the basis for all hope. You just have to look at how Eve rejoiced when she was delivered of her first son to recognize that she took the promise seriously.


I am sorry that my posts are so long but this business of being found worthy of the revealing of the coming Kingdom of God in visibility when Christ will reign is no small matter. And this is my concern. I have no interest in what happened in Eden for the sake of it. It has to do with Christ Himself most of all because He is worthy already through His obedience unto death. How will we be found worthy, (to His glory and praise), if we have not understood the most fundamental reality of what it is that ails and defeats the walk which Jesus made possible through His obedience and sufferings. Jesus Himself does not compel us to such a walk. He simply says, “Whosoever will come after Me let him deny himself, take up His cross and follow Me”. As for believing in Christ Peter said to the thousands in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost “God commands all men everywhere to repentance”. Rejecting Christ crucified for sin is worthy of hell and the lake of fire. But the coming kingdom is a “whosoever”.


Adam was a living soul. He didn’t need the Tree of Life to be a living soul he already was one, just as we are ourselves. But he was given an opportunity to share in God’ own uncreated eternal life and he personally lost it. Today we now have that very life through Logos, The Word made flesh, His death, resurrection, and His obedience thereto. So we are not back in Eden we are in Christ yet the same reason why Adam failed presents itself to every one of us daily in a choosing to deny or else fulfill the inclinations of “self life” (the flesh). We cannot do this ourselves in probably the same way Adam as an innocent man wouldn’t have been able to figure out that he was being offered eternal life and not just soul life; A living eternal spirit with God, and not just a psyche; God’s life and not just his own life. We need Christ to do it for us, just as Adam needed God to address the problem of Satan and his effect on his wife. So Christ addresses the problem of sin and death in our lives by giving us a new life through which we are able to please God and rely on Him daily. And no I haven’t even come close to realizing this precious reality in my own life either. But I can see it and would that God would draw me into obedience in Him as well and for all of us who love The Lord Jesus.

Edit head to heed

 2012/11/6 17:14
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Croref

////was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??




Who are you addressing??////

anyone

 2012/11/6 21:44Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: amrkelly

Hi amrkelly

amrkelly wrote
///When I first read this brother in the first posting of it, a vague thought crossed my mind. Now that this thread has moved on a little in seeking to answer the OP question I believe that you have said this very well. When Paul said “he who loves his wife loves himself” I believe he wasn’t making a negative statement which by inference would mean, don’t love your wife too much etc. I think he was making a statement based in reality. When Adam first laid eyes on his wife to be, his immediate understanding was real, this is “woman” “flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone”. Clearly his mental powers were acute and functioning very well indeed. He wasn’t informed of this fact; he was simply equipped to know it. This tells me two things. That when Paul said “know you not that when a man loves his wife he loves himself” he was saying nothing more than Adam himself understood the first time he set eyes on his wife. It also tells me that not only was he not capable of being deceived by the serpent but he had all the abilities to know realities. He named all the animals; that is quiet a feat of intellect because this too denotes an ability to understand the nature of every animal. This is the meaning of having authority to name something. Parents name their own children having an understanding of something that took place in their privacy; namely “this is our child” Parents don’t name other peoples children.

In short brother when Adam saw Eve stretch out her hand he was quiet capable of doing something about it. Whatever thoughts crossed his mind, in the end he proffered to go with the emotional and intellectual comfort of agreeing with his wife. This is self before God and this is the first sin of man and this is the basis of the fall. It is a form of Idolatry, putting self before God. It is called disobedience but it is obedience to self interest before obedience to God’ will; in this case experienced internally by a compulsion of that which he could see and hear outwardly, namely that he loved and adored his wife who was of himself.

The words of God to Adam in dealing with the problem of this sin were "because you have listened to the voice of your wife" Genesis 3:17. The action of eating a piece of fruit is no great thing. But for Adam listening to the voice of Eve his wife whom he loved as himself, in the end becomes rebellion in his progeny.///


that was some good thoughts Brother Andrew,

Here are some verses That come to mind

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls


 2012/11/6 22:14Profile
Croref
Member



Joined: 2008/3/18
Posts: 334


 Re:

by proudpapa on 2012/11/6 18:44:58

////was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??


Who are you addressing??////
anyone

No. He was subjected to vanity and failed the test.

 2012/11/7 2:34Profile





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