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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God does not go against the will of man.

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stevet83
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Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

You can always tell who the reformers are(brothagary). I'm gonna piggyback your statement a little, hope you don't mind.
This thread might get locked...There is a misconception about free will on this site. Free will is the ability for one to choose freely whatever they want apart from an internal influence(my own defenition). Adam and Eve had free will. They chose to sin apart from the power of sin(flesh/ sinful nature) being at work in them. That is a fact. Everything changes though after sin entered into man's nature. At this point, the power of sin(flesh/sinful nature) is a principle at work in man. His nature now is in bondage to sin, meaning there is an inclination/influence towards sin. Man's will/volition is also affected, it is not kept neutral, the Bible makes it clear sin has effected every part of man. He fell from his original position. Man's will now is in bondage to sin. It is not free, it is in bondage, so that the inclination of the heart is evil continually. Man sins naturally. Man, because he is a slave to sin, he is free from righteousness. Man doesn't naturally desire holiness, or anything having to do with God, because he is hell bent. If man does desire these things, it is because of grace. If God left us to our own selves we would all go to hell and suffer His wrath for all eternity. Thank God He chose me! Not because I made the right choice, but because of His grace solo!
Some will say, "How is that fair?" Do you not know that when Adam sinned, I sinned, you sinned, all man sinned? He made the choice we all would've made.
Here's an illustration: Prison is full of convicted felons. They committed a crime and have to do their bid. One day the warden comes in to the cell block and picks 20 inmates out of 100 and says, "You guys, bunk it and junk it(pack up your stuff) you're getting pardoned". It's not because they are different or better than the others, but because the warden takes pleasure in fulfilling his own will. He wanted to do it, plain and simple. Do the others yell, "That's not fair?" How can they? Did they not brake the law? And deserve to be there?
What was different about Paul? He was a pharisee like the others. Some will say, "God chose him because He knew that Paul was schooled in the Jewish faith, and he'd be able to find common ground with them" It sounds good but not Biblical. What Paul taught, wasn't what he learned in Hebrew school. It was given by revelation(Gal. 1)Paul considered himself chief among sinners, he would've kept persecuting if he hadn't been seperated then called by His grace(Gal. 1)
Man's sinfulness is a fact, God's grace is a must. What does the Scripture say? I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteosness can be obtained by the law, then Christ died in vain.
Why did God choose Abram? It's funny cause in Gen. it gives these lists of geneologies and right after God spoke to Abram. The Earth was full of people yet God chose Abram. Interesting...

 2012/11/3 0:30Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Romans as does the rest of scripture teaches clearly that men are Guilty because of their ability, the scripture does not teach that men are guilty because of their inability.

I would recommend to everyone when reading Romans to start at ch 1 if you do not first get the ground work for the book of Romans you will be confused when you get to ch 9.

I would also recommend to everyone to use a Bible that correctly translates the greek word Katecho as "hold" In Romans ch 1 v 18 rather than "suppress".
little translation changes like these can greatly confuse the understanding of what is written.

 2012/11/3 0:39Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: stevet83

Hi stevet83

//Here's an illustration: Prison is full of convicted felons//

But Prisons are not full of infants nor are men their because of their fathers.
They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law.
Where their is no law their is no sin

 2012/11/3 0:46Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re

proudpapa,
Romans as does the rest of scripture teaches clearly that men are Guilty because of their ability, the scripture does not teach that men are guilty because of their inability.

Fact is, everyone born is a sinner before they actually commit a sin.

before i could get water baptized the paster had to ask me questions. One question was, how many times does a person need to sin to be a sinner?

 2012/11/3 0:47Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

proudpapa,
"..They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law."

Law of Concience: To know what you ought to do and you do not do it that is sin.

Governing Law: The law of the land.

God's Law: Ten Commandments.

God's standard: Holiness.

Paul said, "I do not need anyone to judge me, for I do not even judge myself. though my councience be clear that does not make me innocent, for it is God who judges.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is Holy anything short of that is sin, that's the standard. It isn't subjective.

 2012/11/3 0:54Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: stevet83

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///proudpapa,
"..They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law."

Law of Concience: To know what you ought to do and you do not do it that is sin.

Governing Law: The law of the land.

God's Law: Ten Commandments.

God's standard: Holiness.

Paul said, "I do not need anyone to judge me, for I do not even judge myself. though my councience be clear that does not make me innocent, for it is God who judges.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is Holy anything short of that is sin, that's the standard. It isn't subjective.///

Yes, none of this includes infants. Pauls says I was alive without the law once:... This was Paul as an infant innocent with no Law

 2012/11/3 0:58Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: stevet83

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///Fact is, everyone born is a sinner before they actually commit a sin.///

No fact is everyone is born innocent. Sin is choice not substance as what the gnostics taught

 2012/11/3 1:07Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

All have sinned

 2012/11/3 1:08Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: stevet83

///All have sinned///

The free gift came upon all men

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 2012/11/3 1:12Profile
stevet83
Member



Joined: 2012/9/9
Posts: 77


 Re:

sorry but don't know what gnostics taught. sin is not only a choice. It is what you do, say, think, and desire.
sin is also a power that is at work in the natural man, it's refered to as the flesh or sinful nature.

 2012/11/3 1:12Profile





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